Share it fairly but dont take a slice of my pie.
Written by ekg on November 2, 2008 – 12:41 am -Ben Stein told Larry King the other night his version of a republican and that pretty much sums of my idea of them also…
Image by Getty Images via Daylife
STEIN: I want to see a return to the republicans like Dwight Eisenhower, balance the budget,small government, civil rights, no foreign adventures, keep the corporate people under control, watch them like hawks and that’s the Dwight Eisenhower Republicans and we’ve drifted far away. If we lose this election, it’s a chance for the party to return to its basics.
If they would just add in some social programs, I think I could be this kind of republican. But it’s the yearning for social programs that kicks me out of that party and into the literal/Democratic party.
Stein’s idea of a republican is also not what the GOP is practicing these days. Today they are all about super-sized spending and super-sized intrusive government. But that is for another blog…I want to talk about a couple of comments I’ve received.
Obama’s plans don’t actually help you. They provide a short-term benefit, but in the long term, even from a welfare point of view, are detrimental, as those who create jobs and wealth will slowly withdraw from the system.
Reading your message, it seems that you are saying that you feel entitled to take the fruit of my labor and utilize it for your own needs. I had always thought that you were a liberal, not a communist. Punishing those of us who work hard, and pair that hard work with a great deal of risk, will destroy our desire to achieve. When that happens, there will be no one left to steal from, I mean over-tax.
Another thing that Obama will ruin is charity. I have given around $15k to the food pantry at my church this year. When I close the doors at my business, or even if I stay open, who is going to fullfill the void I leave? Are you going to give a portion of the money, stolen from me by Obama’s big government, to this food pantry? Doubtful. And because these folks won’t be serviced by the pantry, Obama gets his wish – greater dependance on government help. This will snowball out of control…
There is so much wrong with this and other comments I’ve seen, such as
There is nothing in the constitution that provides for social programs from the federal government. If you want food stamps or free health care, get if from your State. but I am clearly for a far less big and intrusive Federal government that you are. I’m not sure if you recognize limits on Federal power. Is there anything that you think the federal government should not provide? Food (stamps), Housing, job training, daycare, health care, dental care? subsidized mortgages, subsidized anything?
There seems to be this misconception that the only who people would benefit from Obama’s tax breaks are the poorest of poor, or when Obama comes into office it will be food stamps and free healthcare for everyone. There is also this misconception that Obama is talking about implementing this new idea of a progressive tax system and a rebate via a new concept called the earned income child tax credit. Since both of the these programs were not only invented by High-adored Conservative Republicans, but were also strengthen by what I have been told is the “Obama version of the Republican party”, Ronald Regan, I am completely baffled by the outrage.
What both persons commenting don’t understand is that there will always be the poorest of the poor who get food stamps and free-healthcare. It doesn’t matter what president in office so that argument should be out to rest.
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Just because a Democrat is in the oval doesn’t mean the poor will get more free-stuff, just look at the biggest welfare reformer of all times, Bill Clinton, if you doubt that. Even that is not the issue though, the issue is … so what? So what if more people get more in food stamps and some kind of healthcare? Is it a drain on our economy? Yes, but so was that bridge to nowhere that Palin said no thanks to, when she really didn’t and even after she said she did, she kept the damn money. So is the billions that have been mismanaged in the Iraq war. But those are Republican-made spending so they are not evil and despotic, it’s only evil and despotic when the money will go to help a newborn get their polio vaccination or an 4.0 A student pay for their college.
Do I want my friends money taken from him and given to me so I can go out and party like it’s 1999? No. Do I want the same kind of tax-break that Donald Trump has been given over the last 8 years? Yes! Why does he deserve it more than me? Because he is wealthy and he employs thousands of people? Because if he doesn’t get it, then he will pack up and leave the country?
Bullshit on both accounts. First and foremost, under Obama he’ll have to fire his employees,close his doors and move to Ireland. Ya know what? Good, get the fuck out, we don’t want your unpatriotic, extorting ass here anyway and I don’t care how many people you employ! Because guess what? This is America and we still have the best of the best of anything, health professionals,retail stores,entertainment and while you may
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decide to move out, you’ll damn sure be back every chance you get to patronize us in some way.
I want to see all walks of life in this country get some kind of fair taxation, I want to see everyone in this country come together and help one another and I am the unpatriotic one? But when a business owner threatens to send his employees into the financial ruin, leave the country and give another country his buisness and employ their citizens, he’s the patriot? Bullshit!
“I’ll give less to charity” is another reason why we shouldn’t vote for Obama. Again, Bullshit! You cannot hold a gun to a poor person head and threaten them with death if a certain president is elected and call that patriotism. I know Tony Soprano would, but come on! You are extorting churches and charities now to prove your point?
NO, what you are doing is taking your ball and going home because you are pissed that you didn’t win the game. It’s a temper tantrum plain and simple.
This is a great analogy for those against the current progressive tax system
If you went to dinner with 10 people from your company, and you made more than everyone else, and everyone ordered the same exact meal, how do you divide the check?
The bill comes to 100 dollars. (I like round numbers.)
Because you make more than everyone else… you are now required to pay $50 for the meal.
Three of the people make middle income, so they have to pay $15 each.
Three more people make a modicum of income. They pay $5 dollars a piece.
The other three get their meal and the receive $3.33 to go home with.
Is that fair?
To some, it is. To others, it is not.
Is that fair? Of course in a perfect world it is not. Just because some people are more wealthy than others they shouldn’t be forced to pay more. But this is not a perfect or even fair world. For the last 8 years, using the ‘dinner tab’ analogy, the middle income guy has shouldered not only his share, but the share of the bottom guy and the top guy because the poor guy will never have the money no matter who is president and under the current administration and the McCain administration, the top guy isn’t paying his share either. Obama wants to change this, he wants to make the top guy pays his full share so it gives the middle guy a little bit of a break.
This is not socialism. This is not me taking money from my rich friends. This is me telling my rich friends that I can no longer pay my share and their share of the costs to live in the country.
Even Warren Buffet’s blasted the current tax system
Buffett cited himself, the third-richest person in the world, as an example. Last year, Buffett said, he was taxed at 17.7 percent on his taxable income of more than $46 million. His receptionist was taxed at about 30 percent.
No, the richest 1% shouldn’t have to have their money taken from them to pay for the people who will always look for the handout, but neither should I.
No, the richest 1% shouldn’t be the only ones to pay for our schools,roads, military and law enforcement, but I shouldn’t be the one to shoulder my burden of the cost and their burden of the cost.
Will Warren Buffet benefit less than his secretary will benefit more is the question. As long as he is paying his share and not making her pay hers and his portion, both will benefit. More money in her pocket gives her more money to spend on his products.
I understand why someone would take their business and their money to another country if their taxes were outrageously high. Rolling back George Bush’s tax credit does not constitute ‘outrageously high’ though.
I understand that noone wants to pay more taxes but don’t ever tell me that you should not have carry your burden of the cost to live in this country because you make more money than me. We all pay to live in this society and if we want to be safe and have a strong military we will have to pay for them, so stop demanding that you should get to pay less because you make so much more.
I love my wealthy friend to death and will miss him when he moves. And while he won’t be able to count on the same things in his new country that I can count on here, what he can count on is that under John McCain, I will still here paying my share and his share ensuring that this country will be here for him when decides to come home and shop. I only hope I will be able to bear this burden and not give up on my country and become one of the poor who is forced to live off the system or else he won’t have a motherland to come back to.
The wealthy can give up and move to another country if they are taxed, but the middle class, when they finally give up or just break will have nowhere to go except to the food stamp office.
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Tags: America, Ben Stein, Bill and Melinda Gates, Bill Clinton, Conservative, Democrat, earned income child tax credit, economy, fair tax, food stamps, free healthcare, Larry King, McCain, McCain administration, Obama, Obama's tax breaks, patriot, progressive tax system, republicans, Ronald Regan, socialism, Warren Buffet
Posted in MucheDumbre, Proper Gander (a skewed view) | 20 Comments »
November 2nd, 2008 at 1:24 am
Good blog, Kel. Great points that were expressed eloquently.
November 2nd, 2008 at 10:53 am
It’s interesting that the richest people in America fear Obama’s economic plan when they are the ones who cajoled the government to deregulate deregulation, thus destroying the economy. Meanwhile, they’re the same people who work the hardest to accumulate tax write-off after tax write-off in order to pay less taxes while grasping their pork-fed fat ass with their own greedy little hands. These guys will never lose their profane wealth, it’s the middle class who gradually gets poorer.
November 2nd, 2008 at 2:08 pm
Christ, you’re a wordy bitch. ;)
November 2nd, 2008 at 4:08 pm
dude…… you should have seen it before I took out like 7 paragraphs….
no really… 7 of them…
HA!
November 2nd, 2008 at 6:10 pm
You seem to think that under the Bush years the rich have been sliding out of their fair share of tax paying. Here are some real numbers:
In 1999 the top 1% were paying 19.51% of federal income taxes. In 2006, they were paying 22.06%. Hardly a giveaway to the rich going on.
In 1999 the bottom 50% were paying 13.25% of federal income taxes. In 2006, they were paying 12.51%.
All tax plans (that I know of) are progressive. Even a flat tax ( my personal favorite)has individual deductions that have low and middle income people paying a far less percentage of their income in taxes than upper middle or rich people.
I know on your side there is a desire to punish the rich, and to look at the economy as a zero sum game, “they are rich because they took most of the money!” But if Atlas Shrugs, and the productive class leaves, we are going to find ourselves as a third world country.
November 2nd, 2008 at 7:38 pm
I’ve been thinking about part of your blog…hmmm… how do I say this? If a person donates $15K to a charity, is it simply because he is an amazingly generous philanthropist? Only if he doesn’t use the “donations” as a tax deduction.
If he could no longer use the donation as a tax deduction, would he still donate as much?
If a large percentage of generous donors (to various charities) taxes were to increase (causing a reduction in their charitable donations) to pay for gov’t funded programs to help the poor, then it’s a wash.
Except the “wealthy” person who donates considerable sums has the ability to discriminate as to who gets more “charity”.
The gov’t is far more restricted in it’s ability to discrimate.
… or something. I’m babbling… but I think that a charitable donation ought to be given out of the kindness of your heart and the sympathy you feel for the less fortunate, not because you can write it off at the end of the year.
Christ, now I’m becoming a wordy bitch.
November 2nd, 2008 at 9:02 pm
You know, on further thought, I think that a lot of the charities ought to be funded by the more fortuneate instead of the government.
Regardless of what put you in your position of need, there is very likely a wealthy person or people who can sympathize with your plight, and willing to lend a helping hand to aid you.
…though I’m still waffling on whether or not charitable contributions should be tax deductable…
November 2nd, 2008 at 9:29 pm
Mike I’m trying to check your numbers…
In 2006, they were paying 22.06%
I can’t find that… I can a plethora of….
New statistics from the Internal Revenue Service show that the highest-earning 1% of taxpayers in America make 22.06% of all income reported to the government.
but not your numbers….. can you check it can get back to me…
MDD…… I don’t know what you’re trying to say….LOL
But…
but I think that a charitable donation ought to be given out of the kindness of your heart and the sympathy you feel for the less fortunate, not because you can write it off at the end of the year.
I totally agree…. ;)
November 2nd, 2008 at 11:10 pm
http://www.taxfoundation.org/taxdata/show/250.html
Table 5
November 3rd, 2008 at 1:19 pm
[I]More money in her pocket gives her more money to spend on his products.[/I]
That’s good… she’s going to need more money when the price of his products go up.
November 3rd, 2008 at 2:29 pm
According to the National Taxpayers Union, the top half of the country pretty much covered the entire tax bill (97.01%).
That means that, if you took the taxes paid by half of the entire tax paying community of this country, it would fall short of 3%.
http://www.ntu.org/main/page.php?PageID=6
If you feel like crunching numbers, MoneyChimp has a calculator for tax rates:
http://www.moneychimp.com/features/tax_brackets.htm
November 3rd, 2008 at 5:36 pm
The numbers both of you are quoting are what percentage of the taxes the top 1%-50% have paid in taxes…..
how much of the wealth do they own? if they own 97% of the wealth then aren’t they taxed fairly?
here..
In the United States, wealth is highly concentrated in a relatively few hands. As of 2001, the top 1% of households (the upper class) owned 33.4% of all privately held wealth, and the next 19% (the managerial, professional, and small business stratum) had 51%, which means that just 20% of the people owned a remarkable 84%, leaving only 16% of the wealth for the bottom 80% (wage and salary workers). In terms of financial wealth, the top 1% of households had an even greater share: 39.7%. Table 1 and Figure 1 present further details drawn from the careful work of economist Edward N. Wolff at New York University (2004).
http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/wealth.html
so the top 20% in 2001 had 84% of the wealth… that left 16% of the wealth in the country for the other 80% of us….
sorry, but they should have been taxed more..
the same with the top 1%…. they have almost 40% of the wealth just to themselves.. so why wouldn’t their taxes be higher? why would get give them lower taxes and lower cap gains?
also It looks like the top 5% pay more in taxes than the top 1%… how is that?
November 5th, 2008 at 1:51 pm
If you went to dinner with 10 people from your company, and you made more than everyone else, and everyone ordered the same exact meal, how do you divide the check?
The bill comes to 100 dollars. (I like round numbers.)
Because you make more than everyone else… you are now required to pay $50 for the meal.
Three of the people make middle income, so they have to pay $15 each.
Three more people make a modicum of income. They pay $5 dollars a piece.
The other three get their meal and the receive $3.33 to go home with.
Is that fair?
To some, it is. To others, it is not.
You forgot the second half of this story. The part where the dude paying half the bill finally gets fed up and stops having lunch with the rest of the leaches at the table, leaving them to pay for what they consume…
You still haven’t answered one of the questions that I possed in the quote: Why do you feel entitled to take the fruits of my labor to spend as you see fit? What input did you have on earning the money that gives you the right to steal it from me?
The sad part of all this is, I’m the guy being forced to pay the $50, but if the government and other theives and beggars weren’t in the equation, I would pick up the whole check…
November 5th, 2008 at 5:21 pm
I answered you Draven
Do I want my friends money taken from him and given to me so I can go out and party like it’s 1999? No.
Look…
there is this country… and in it we have some ppl who make MillionS, not a million a year, but MILLIONS of money every year….
in this country we also have ppl who don’t make anything.. either b/c they are old,stupid,lazy,disabled,unable.. whatever…
and we have all the others in between..
to live in this country means we have freedoms no other country has.. like we can say what we want(within reason), we can vote for who we want, we have the freedoms to show our faces and if not ghey, marry who we want.
We can have as many babies as we want or not have any at all….
we can own guns and even wear them, hidden, under our clothes..
we can go to school and work in professions we chose to work in…
we have ‘choice’ here..
but in order to have all of this we have to pay for certain things… and one of those things that we pay for is someone else’s share of the bill to live here..
You can move to another country and pay it’s citizens bill… and you will pay, maybe not as much.. but hey you’re not getting as much “America” for you payment either….
the best part is…. you have the freedom to do that b/c you are a citizen of a country that allows alot and all it asks for in return is don’t forget that other ppl live here and from many, we are one.. and when a baby dies of hunger b/c a mother can’t work….. that makes us all just a little bit worse..
when two parents can work for jobs and still not have any more than $50 a week for groceries for 4 ppl…. it brings us all down just a little…
some ppl will give… some ppl won’t…… so to live in this country, you have no choice but to help bring up the lowest of the low b/c to leave them there doesn’t raise you at all….
the society I think you are looking for is a capitalistic Russia type place.. or a Monarchy …some place where the rich keep their money and give to the poor when they feel like it.. and the poor stay out of sight/out of mind..
Is this a “Fair” country? No… not even close…but like I said, life isn’t fair…..
is it fair that the ppl who hold the most wealth in the country have to pay more for that wealth? yes…. It’s fair b/c that’s the cost to live here…
so fire all your employees.. force them into poverty.. move out of the country, employ foreign workers, patronize foreign buisness..and pay foreign taxes.. and I’ll be here keeping the light on for you b/c I’m ok with paying my bill to live here and if my bill includes paying a share for someone else? I’m good with that…just don’t expect me to be able to do it forever.. and when I can’t do it any longer… well? who cares… you’ll be in your new country so you won’t give a shit about this one….
what I’m saying is…. the country where you think it’s fair and I think it’s fair doesn’t exist… but the price to live in the best country out there is that the wealthiest 1% have to pay a little more…
:) :~)
November 6th, 2008 at 10:40 am
The problem with poor people, and most of the middle class, is that you don’t understand the principles of economics. And you never will. Because to truly understand how money works is to admit that standing with your hand out only helps in the short term. Because of this, you will destroy the very country that gives you the right to destroy it. So be it. I chose not be stick around and watch America die.
Had I known that I was really spending 15 years defending only your right to be ignorant, I would have left the military long, long ago…
November 6th, 2008 at 10:42 am
The problem with poor people, and most of the middle class, is that you don’t understand the principles of economics. And you never will. Because to truly understand how money works is to admit that standing with your hand out only helps in the short term. Because of this, you will destroy the very country that gives you the right to destroy it. So be it. I chose not be stick around and watch America die. When lil draven raised the flag in front of our house yesterday, it flew in the position of distress, and will do so until we leave.
What truly saddens me is, had I known that I was really spending 15 years bleeding for and defending only your rights of the poor to be greedy (while chastizing those with money for their greed) and ignorant, I would have left the military long, long ago…
November 6th, 2008 at 10:56 am
One final series of questions. Do you smoke? Drink? Take drugs? Watch cable or satellite? Drive a newer car? Take vacations?
If you can afford these luxuries, and they are luxuries, why can you not afford health insurance? How can you purchase flat panel TVs, but then decry folks like me because we cry foul when you ask us to pay for your undiciplined behavior? Not all poor and middle-class act this way, but the majority do. Purchasing houses, TVs, cars and other garbage status items that you cannot afford is not the fault of the wealthy. It’s your own greed, your own desire to be wealthy without putting forth the effort required to gain wealth, that is the problem. Until poor people look in the mirror and admit that they are the problem, that they are not doing enough to improve their own position in life, this country has no chance of righting itself.
I did not make millions of dollars by working a 40 hour week, then sitting at home doing nothing in the evenings. I have worked my tail off, working two and three jobs to get ahead, starting as a teenager. That is the only way to get ahead in this world, and the only thing keeping you and others in your circumstance from doing the same is YOU! Work harder, partner that hard work with a little financial risk, and you will flourish.
Or, just sit back, and hold your hand out, and the government will make it all better…
November 6th, 2008 at 9:32 pm
How can you purchase flat panel TVs, but then decry folks like me because we cry foul when you ask us to pay for your undiciplined behavior? Not all poor and middle-class act this way, but the majority do
no they don’t. no they absolutely do not… you are once again lumping all ppl into one large group…. why? Because it’s easier to think ‘those’ ppl squander their money away when they should be saving it, than it is to help them
our ‘undisciplined’ behavior? is this a fucking joke? I thought you were all for undisciplined behavior in the market and banking circles… but OMG if the poor should practice the motto’s of the rich…string them up,no better yet.. bail out the rich guys off the backs of the poor and ignorant..
answers……. yes I smoke, no I don’t do drugs, I don’t drink, I don’t go out, I don’t eat out, I do know when movies I want to see are coming out, so I save $5 week….
I don’t have a cell phone, nor do my kids.. we don’t have playstation,wii or any of those things either… we have the computer/cable instead.
New car? Not since 2001. Vacations, yep in 2005… and I took a menial job that paid decent and had me home when the kids were and worked my fucking ass off, my kid saved her birthday/christmas money for 2 years… today? I have a better job, make alot more money and can’t save a penny… something is wrong with that picture.
my TV? from my parents when they got their plasma they gave me their 50in projection..I’ve kept it up for the last 5 years tho..one kid has a $50 tv from walmart that she got for christmas 4 years ago… maybe she should sell it for $15 tho right?
Now, go ahead….. tell me that that money I spend on smoking is a luxury that I could spend on healthcare.. or the cable/computer monthly payment could be stuck in a retirement fund…. go right the hell on ahead….. but after knowing every single thing that I have and don’t have… are you really going to judge me ignorant and wasteful for those 2 vices?
Work harder? really? how very “let them eat cake” of you my dear… and just SO nice of you to presume to know how hard I work or how many jobs I actually have….and nice of you to assume there are even jobs out there to ‘work harder’ at…
let me ask you something…would it be better if I lived with my kids in a one room shack, with no curtains, no heat/a/c, no tv.. oodles/noodles for dinner every night, worn down shoes on our feet, raggy clothes on our back and working nigt and day at 3 jobs? is that when you would say “well shit, she really is doing everything she can and it’s just not enough, something is wrong here and we need to fix it”
Oh wait, let me guess.. you would just give $15k to a local charity and then pat yourself on the back for helping ‘those’ ppl…
Your story of your best dinner was a touching one…. but why is it you think that you are the only one with a story like that?
Let me clue you in…. you’re not.
I work harder now than I ever have in my life.. and you know what? it’s not enough..But I don’t want a hand out…. the ‘poor’ and ‘ignorant’ like me don’t want a hand out…. we want a little bit of a break.. nothing more, nothing less..
are there some ppl that DO want a handout.. that DO mooch off the system? you bet your ass there is.. there are ‘crooks’ who are rich and poor.. and whether we are free-market capitalist or spread the wealth socialist, those ppl will alway be there..and they should not factor in any argument… but in order for you not to sound like a soulless human being, you have to have them in your argument..b/c for you to look at the mother of 2 working 3 jobs and not getting anywhere and to say “work harder and you’ll get there”, makes you sound like a wealthy 18th century noblemen
take a little financial risk..get a job, work hard…maybe you should go out and buy a clue Draven…. I think Sak’s has them 1/2 off… you rich guys have fucked the economy up so much with your “undisciplined spending” that us ‘ignorant’ folk don’t have the money for utilities, much less to put into the stock market to help save your ass from the even richer guy who fucked you..
November 11th, 2008 at 2:28 pm
I will leave you with this little bit. You have mentioned before that you believe that I, and those like me, are throwing a tantrum. We are taking our ball and going home. I am not closing my doors because I am mad. I am mad because I am being forced to close my doors. I am taking my ball home because for you to get the bit of a break that you seek, someone has to cut a piece of that ball and give it to you. That does not leave me with a smaller ball, but a worthless, deflated ball.
I can stay in business in the states and barely squeek by at less than a 2% ROI. Or, I can inprove the ROI by being an evil businessman and taking away both the retirement and health benefits that I provide to my employees. That would only boost my ROI by about .3%, so I am still better off closing up shop and dumping all my cash into a money market account.
For every action we take, there are consequences. Your action, and the action of those like you, led to Obama winning the election. The consequence thereof is that folks like me, who are also providing for our families, have to make shitty decisions, such as offshoring. So I am selling off property as fast as I can, moving all liquid assets to foreign banks and I will be in NZ next week to set up shop in a more hospitable climate.
If Obama choses to tweak his plan, and operating on US soil remains lucrative, I will send him a box of chocolates for encouraging me to enter the global market. I’ll have an excuse to travel quarterly to dive the Reef and right the whole trip off. If not, I will woefully watch his efforts to give you a bit of a break push unemployment well into double digits and will moarn the slow demise of my Country…
November 11th, 2008 at 3:29 pm
so you’re selling and moving 60 days before he is elected and before he’s even done anything…..and that isn’t taking your ball and going home?
if you say so…
now…… while there you can blame your move on him being elected…. but the loss of money on your property you can only blame on Bush since he was was the one in charge…. so make sure you lay the blame where it belongs… b/c you have fired your employees and moved to another country at an already admitted loss when there has been not one single change in government or taxes since Barack was elected 7 days ago..
and the speed in which you are doing seems like this was pre-planned for awhile now…. I would think the massive massive loss in value of your property is what is playing the role in you moving… but I’ll let you blame Obama instead b/c I want it understood that you took your ball and went home just b/c he was elected and not b/c of anything he has done or changed….. since even by next week, he will not have done anything since he will still not be the president.
Good luck Draven…