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	<title>MucheDumbre</title>
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	<description>A Social Experiment Gone Horribly Wrong</description>
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		<title>And so it ends..</title>
		<link>http://muchedumbre.com/and-so-it-ends</link>
		<comments>http://muchedumbre.com/and-so-it-ends#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Jun 2009 19:51:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>ekg</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[MucheDumbre]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://muchedumbre.com/?p=453</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[A couple  years ago, at a party in Titusville, I was asked by a person I have supreme respect for to write a 500 word article for his online newspaper,  The Harbinger.  I was humbled and honored that he would ask me to do something like this for his publication. After I agreed I went [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A couple  years ago, at a party in Titusville, I was asked by <a href="http://somacow.com/" target="_blank">a person I have supreme respect</a> for to write a 500 word article for his online newspaper,  The Harbinger.  I was humbled and honored that he would ask me to do something like this for his publication. After I agreed I went home and got to work and found out how exquisitely hard this was going to be. Seriously, 500 words? Me? My &#8216;post-it&#8217; notes laying around the house reminding of things I need to do are over 600 words. How could I possibly write <em>only </em>500 words. Not too worry <a href="http://somacow.com/listen" target="_blank">Jaffe </a>said to me..<em>&#8220;don&#8217;t force it, just write.. I will find the space to put it.&#8221;</em></p>
<p>and so it began.</p>
<p>After some months and some staff changes (hi Jackie :) ) the Harbinger published it&#8217;s last edition, but not before I was honored and humbled once again. See <a href="http://somacow.com/" target="_blank">another person I have supreme respect</a> for said if I wanted to continue to write, he would give me a spot on the front page of his website. Anyone coming to this site for the first time, would see my words staring back at them.. I don&#8217;t know how he continued to get hits. ..  but we did.</p>
<p>Not long after my first blogs, Lil Mike was asked to give his side of the political story and that&#8217;s when the fun started. It was the height of the most followed political season in recent memory, Lil mike with his &#8216;always right&#8217; and me and my &#8216;proper gander&#8217; battled it out to give the readers both sides of the choices in front of them.</p>
<p>Something seemed to click and Mike and I started to get more of a following. It wasn&#8217;t just<a href="http://muchedumbre.com/forum/index.php/board,77.0.html" target="_blank"> MucheDumbre forum</a> readers reading us now. Our &#8216;choice&#8217; words were showing up out in the blog-sphere and occasionally out of the mouths of people we&#8217;d least expect it from.</p>
<p>I think I can speak for Mike when I say that we&#8217;ve have an amazing time posting here on the Muche page. We&#8217;ve had some great topics and intense discussions..it truly has been a blast! But, as the seasons change&#8230; so must the days of our lives.</p>
<p>After much discussion I have decided to move to a new place. After even more discussion, <a href="http://somacow.com/listen" target="_blank">Mickey</a> has built it for me. You cannot know or understand the level of patience and comprehension of &#8216;girl-speak&#8217; this man has. From a description of <em>&#8220;You know, kinda frilly with a dirty side.. like.. umm.. that one backdrop on that one show..&#8221; </em>Not to  mention everyone&#8217;s favorite <em>&#8220;Can you move this over here&#8230; ummm.. no, it looked better where it was before, can you move it back&#8221;</em>.. through it all he was able to create my new home.. and I fucking love it! and I hope you will to.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s still in the infant stages and the move isn&#8217;t complete&#8230; parts of the place are still dusty with construction, but please.. stop by for a peek and stay for the ride..because the beer is cold, the game is tied, the pipe is primed and the fun is just starting.
</p>
<p><h1 style="text-align: center;"><a href="http://thevsj.com/" target="_blank">The Velvet StraitJacket</a></h1>
<h4 style="text-align: center;"><span id="blog-description">Because Insanity Should Be Comfortable</span></h4>
</p>
<p>
<span><br />
</span></p>
<p>I am hoping Lil Mike and his &#8216;always right&#8217; will be joining me soon and before long we will be back up and running in full, ridiculous fashion. We&#8217;ve both searched high and low and while there are great blogs out there that offer you the &#8216;right&#8217; slant of the story..or the &#8216;left&#8217; slant of the story.. there are none that offer you both sides of the story the way we are able to. Hubris? Yes.. undeserved? No&#8230; We have done this kind of thing together for over 10 years now, there is simply no one better at it than we are. We may not see eye to eye on much of anything (short joke-ha!) but we agree that we are goddamn good at what we do.</p>
<p>For those of you who gave me your trust and the opportunity.. <strong>I thank you.</strong> You took a chance on a wordy-opinionated bitch and I hope that in some small way I have justified that trust. Muchedumbre readers, <em>thank you</em> for all the support you have given me over the years, I do this for you&#8230; and I hope that you will continue reading&#8230;</p>
<p>Kelly.<a href="http://thevsj.com/"></a></p>
<p><a href="http://thevsj.com/">The VSJ</a></p>
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		</item>
		<item>
		<title>What is Torture?</title>
		<link>http://muchedumbre.com/what-is-torture</link>
		<comments>http://muchedumbre.com/what-is-torture#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 May 2009 18:47:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>lilmike</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[MucheDumbre]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Al Qaeda]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Attorney General]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Christopher Hitchens]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[CIA]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Dan Lungren]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Demjanuk v Holder]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Eric Holder]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Evil Eye]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[gitmo]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Jay Bybee]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[John Yoo]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[justice department]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Khalid Sheikh Mohammed]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Library tower]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Louie Gohmert]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Mancow]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Obama]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Osama bin Ladin]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[SEALS]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Sean Hannity]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[second wave]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[SERE]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[torture]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[torture memos]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[waterboard]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://muchedumbre.com/?p=454</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[ 
No really.  What is it?  This turned out to be much more difficult to answer then you would think.   Of course, I’m not talking about boiling someone’s feet, or taking a blowtorch to the eyeballs.  Those acts seem to be rather uncontroversially designated as torture.  No, I’m talking about that crown prince of enhanced interrogation; [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt; text-align: center;" align="center"><span style="font-size: 14pt; line-height: 115%;"><span style="font-family: Calibri;"> </span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span style="font-size: 14pt; line-height: 115%;"><span style="font-family: Calibri;">No really.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>What is it?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>This turned out to be much more difficult to answer then you would think.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">   </span>Of course, I’m not talking about boiling someone’s feet, or taking a blowtorch to the eyeballs.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>Those acts seem to be rather uncontroversially designated as torture.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>No, I’m talking about that crown prince of enhanced interrogation; <a href=" http://science.howstuffworks.com/water-boarding.htm">waterboarding</a>.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span></span></span><span style="font-family: Calibri;"> </span></p>
<p style="text-align: center;"> </p>
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<dt class="wp-caption-dt"><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Animatronic_depiction_of_waterboarding_from_Coney_Island.jpg"><img title="Animatronic depiction of waterboarding from Co..." src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/ef/Animatronic_depiction_of_waterboarding_from_Coney_Island.jpg/300px-Animatronic_depiction_of_waterboarding_from_Coney_Island.jpg" alt="Animatronic depiction of waterboarding from Co..." width="300" height="200" /></a></dt>
<dd class="wp-caption-dd zemanta-img-attribution" style="font-size: 0.8em;">Image via <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Animatronic_depiction_of_waterboarding_from_Coney_Island.jpg">Wikipedia</a></dd>
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<p> </p>
<div><span style="font-family: Calibri;"><span><span style="font-size: 14pt; line-height: 115%;">Waterboarding is a form of simulated drowning in which the subject is strapped to a board tilted at an angle, with the head lowered, and water is poured through a cloth over the face in intervals.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>It is supposed to be panic inducing, in the same way some joker at the YMCA pool tries to accomplish by pushing your head under water when you are trying to surface.</span></span></span></div>
<p> <span style="font-size: 14pt; line-height: 115%;"><span style="font-family: Calibri;">On a philosophical and personal level, I feel waterboarding is torture.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>Its purpose is to cause mental anguish enough to cause the subject to spill their guts on plans and operations.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>Still, unlike a blow torch to the eyeball or boiling feet, people are lining up to have themselves waterboarded, either for a bet, charity, or publicity.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">   </span>One wonders why <a href="http://www.jackassworld.com/">Jackass </a>star <a href="http://www.steveo.com/">Steve-O</a> didn’t think of it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>Vanity Fair journalist <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LPubUCJv58&amp;feature=fvst">Christopher Hitchens</a> did think of it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>As well as Chicago radio personality <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOStoGd5GZw&amp;feature=fvst">Mancow</a> (allegedly) and Central Florida radio listener <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tz3SlRMe7ns">Evil Eye</a>.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span><a href="http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/04/22/hannity-offers-to-be-wate_n_190354.html">Sean Hannity</a> made the offer to do it, but as yet hasn’t made good on his offer.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>In a battle of the ratings can Chris Matthews and Glenn Beck be far behind?</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span style="font-size: 14pt; line-height: 115%;"><span style="font-family: Calibri;">On a<em style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;"> legal</em> level however, I have grave doubts on if waterboarding meets the standard.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">   </span>Torture is against Federal law, specifically, <a href="http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/usc_sup_01_18_10_I_20_113C.html">Title 18 Part 1 Chapter 113C</a> of the US Code.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>However what does it actually say?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>The law defines torture this way:</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: normal;"><a name="1"></a><strong><span style="font-size: 14pt; color: #000000; font-family: Verdana;">(1)</span></strong><span style="font-size: 14pt; color: #000000; font-family: Verdana;"> “torture” means an act committed by a person acting under the color of law specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering (other than pain or suffering incidental to lawful sanctions) upon another person within his custody or physical control; </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: normal;"><a name="2"></a><strong><span style="font-size: 14pt; color: #000000; font-family: Verdana;">(2)</span></strong><span style="font-size: 14pt; color: #000000; font-family: Verdana;"> “severe mental pain or suffering” means the prolonged mental harm caused by or resulting from— </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: normal;"><a name="2_A"></a><strong><span style="font-size: 14pt; color: #000000; font-family: Verdana;">(A)</span></strong><span style="font-size: 14pt; color: #000000; font-family: Verdana;"> the intentional infliction or threatened infliction of severe physical pain or suffering; </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: normal;"><a name="2_B"></a><strong><span style="font-size: 14pt; color: #000000; font-family: Verdana;">(B)</span></strong><span style="font-size: 14pt; color: #000000; font-family: Verdana;"> the administration or application, or threatened administration or application, of mind-altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or the personality; </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: normal;"><a name="2_C"></a><strong><span style="font-size: 14pt; color: #000000; font-family: Verdana;">(C)</span></strong><span style="font-size: 14pt; color: #000000; font-family: Verdana;"> the threat of imminent death; or </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; margin: 0in 0in 6pt; line-height: normal;"><a name="2_D"></a><strong><span style="font-size: 14pt; color: #000000; font-family: Verdana;">(D)</span></strong><span style="font-size: 14pt; color: #000000; font-family: Verdana;"> the threat that another person will imminently be subjected to death, severe physical pain or suffering, or the administration or application of mind-altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or personality; and </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-size: 14pt; line-height: 115%;"><span style="font-family: Calibri;"> </span></span><span style="font-size: 14pt; line-height: 115%;"><span style="font-family: Calibri;">It would be difficult to argue in court that waterboarding results in severe mental or physical pain.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>No marks or physical damage after all, and no reported mental issues from waterboarding.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>Or at least I have not heard of anyone suffering from Post traumatic Stress Syndrome or other long term issue from the interrogation method.</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span style="font-size: 14pt; line-height: 115%;"><span style="font-family: Calibri;">This was the gist of the “<a href="http://politics.theatlantic.com/2009/04/here_are_the_torture_memos.php">Torture Memos</a>” which I had <a href=" http://muchedumbre.com/banana-republic">discussed</a> a few weeks ago.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>The former Justice Department attorney’s, whom President Obama has decided to give the Kangaroo Court go ahead to the Attorney General, made a fairly good case that waterboarding doesn’t violate US law as torture.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>That’s not an argument that waterboarding is a harmless prank, or around the level of good cop/ bad cop when it comes to interrogations, but it does give good evidence that the high bar to define it legally as torture was not met.</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span style="font-size: 14pt; line-height: 115%;"><span style="font-family: Calibri;">And who should confirm that conclusion? None other than Attorney General Eric Holder.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>Holder gave away the store a few weeks ago during a <a href="http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=31882&amp;page=1#c1">Congressional hearing</a> on closing the detainee facility at Gitmo. Holder was being questioned specifically about torture and confirmed again (as he did during his confirmation hearing) that he regarded waterboarding as torture.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>Then he was asked if he regarded the waterboarding that Navy Seals received during their training as torture.</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><strong><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #a50000; line-height: 115%; font-family: Arial;">Holder</span></strong><span style="font-size: 12pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: Arial;">:  No, it’s not torture in the legal sense because you’re not doing it with the intention of harming these people physically or mentally, all we’re trying to do is train them —</span></p>
<p> <span style="font-size: 12pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: Arial;"><strong><span style="color: #2e5477; font-family: Arial;">Rep. Dan Lungren</span></strong>:  So it’s the question of intent?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 12pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: Arial;"><strong><span style="color: #a50000; font-family: Arial;">Holder</span></strong>:  Intent is a huge part.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 12pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: Arial;"><strong><span style="color: #2e5477; font-family: Arial;">Lungren:</span></strong>  So if the intent was to solicit information but not do permanent harm, how is that torture?</span></p>
<p> <span style="font-size: 12pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: Arial;"><strong><span style="color: #a50000; font-family: Arial;">Holder</span></strong>:  Well, it… uh… it… one has to look at&#8230; ah… it comes out to question of fact as one is determining the intention of the person who is administering the waterboarding.  When the Communist Chinese did it, when the Japanese did it, when they did it in the Spanish Inquisition we knew then that was not a training exercise they were engaging in. They were doing it in a way that was violative of all of the statutes recognizing what torture is. What we are doing to our own troops to equip them to deal with any illegal act — that is not torture.</span></p>
<p> <span style="font-size: 12pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: Arial;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: Arial;"><strong><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #2e5477; line-height: 115%; font-family: Arial;">Rep. Louie Gohmert</span></strong><span style="font-size: 12pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: Arial;">:  Whether waterboarding is torture you say is an issue of intent.  If our officers when waterboarding have no intent and in fact knew absolutely they would do no permanent harm to the person being waterboarded, and the only intent was to get information to save people in this country then they would not have tortured under your definition, isn’t that correct?</span></span> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 12pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: Arial;"><strong><span style="color: #a50000; font-family: Arial;">Holder</span></strong>:  No, not at all.  Intent is a fact question, it’s a fact specific question.</span></p>
<p> <span style="font-size: 12pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: Arial;"><strong><span style="color: #2e5477; font-family: Arial;">Gohmert</span></strong>:  So what kind of intent were you talking about?</span></p>
<p> <span style="font-size: 12pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: Arial;"><strong><span style="color: #a50000; font-family: Arial;">Holder</span></strong>:  Well, what is the intention of the person doing the act?  Was it logical that the result of doing the act would have been to physically or mentally harm the person?</span></p>
<p> <span style="font-size: 12pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: Arial;"><strong><span style="color: #2e5477; font-family: Arial;">Gohmert</span></strong>:  I said that in my question.  The intent was not to physically harm them because they knew there would be no permanent harm — there would be discomfort but there would be no permanent harm — knew that for sure.  So, is the intent, are you saying it’s in the mind of the one being water-boarded, whether they felt they had been tortured.  Or is the intent in the mind of the actor who knows beyond any question that he is doing no permanent harm, that he is only making them think he’s doing harm.</span></p>
<p> <span style="font-size: 12pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: Arial;"><strong><span style="color: #a50000; font-family: Arial;">Holder</span></strong>:  The intent is in the person who would be charged with the offense, the actor, as determined by a trier of fact looking at all of the circumstances.  That is ultimately how one decides whether or not that person has the requisite intent.  </span></p>
<p> <span style="font-size: 12pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: Arial;"> <span style="font-size: 12pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: Arial;"> </span><span style="font-size: 12pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: Arial;"><span style="font-size: 14pt; line-height: 115%;"><span style="font-family: Calibri;">So Holder, seems to be saying, without outright admitting it, that in a legal sense, under Title 18 Part 1 Chapter 113C, the waterboarding that was done by the CIA was <em style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">not</em> torture.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>It’s all about the intent.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>And Holder practices what he preaches.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>That is the exact position the Justice Department is taking in another case, <em><span style="font-family: Calibri;"><a href="http://www2.nationalreview.com/dest/2009/05/06/71694f722e5a5d7c8e4aff8d948e40c4.pdf">Demjanjuk </a></span></em></span><span style="font-family: Calibri;"><a href="http://www2.nationalreview.com/dest/2009/05/06/71694f722e5a5d7c8e4aff8d948e40c4.pdf">v. </a></span><em><span style="font-family: Calibri;"><a href="http://www2.nationalreview.com/dest/2009/05/06/71694f722e5a5d7c8e4aff8d948e40c4.pdf">Holder</a><strong>.</strong><span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span></span><span style="font-style: normal; font-family: Calibri; mso-bidi-font-style: italic;">In that case, John Demjanuk, a former Nazi camp guard was fighting deportation to Germany to stand trial on the grounds that considering his age, poor health, and expected bad treatment at the hands of German jailors (ohh irony!),<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>would be the equivalent of torture due to the “severe Pain and suffering” that he would be expected to endure.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>Demjanjuk lost, since the court found there was no established intent (there is that word again!) by German authorities to torture him.</span></em></span></span></span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 12pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: Arial;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: Arial;"></span></span><em><span style="font-size: 14pt; line-height: 115%; font-style: normal; font-family: Calibri; mso-bidi-font-style: italic;">And yet, law is apparently not going to stand in the way of political opportunism both for the Obama administration and the Holder Justice Department.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>A<strong> </strong><a href=" http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/05/05/AR2009050502219.html?hpid=moreheadlines">leaked</a> DOJ ethics report on John Yoo and Jay Bybee, two of the authors of the infamous torture memos, will recommend disciplinary action.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>All because they devised the legal strategy that Holder is using in another case, and has basically admitted in hearings is correct.</span></em></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><em><span style="font-size: 14pt; line-height: 115%; font-style: normal; font-family: Calibri; mso-bidi-font-style: italic;">Frankly, this is bullshit.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>I know it and Attorney General Holder knows it, but with such a friendly press, there is never going to be a gotcha moment in a press conference; at least not one that will receive wide coverage.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>Did you catch Holder’s admission on intent in those hearings leading the nightly news?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>Neither did I, even though it exposes the hypocrisy of deriding a legal theory in public that the Obama administration is accepting as it’s own on the down low.</span></em></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><em><span style="font-size: 14pt; line-height: 115%; font-style: normal; font-family: Calibri; mso-bidi-font-style: italic;">Was it worth it?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>The waterboarding I mean.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>The former Bush administration took a political risk in adopting that technique, and competing camps have battled on cable shows on whether waterboarding was effective or saved American lives.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>However the opinion of the intelligence community seems to be yes, it did.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>A Washington Post piece describes the <a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/04/20/AR2009042002818.html">“second wave” attack</a> that had been planned for Los Angeles.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>A hijacked airliner would have been used to crash into the Library tower in LA.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>Thanks to information collected through waterboarding, we were able to stop the plot before it ever got off the ground (pun is mine).</span></em></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><em><span style="font-size: 14pt; line-height: 115%; font-style: normal; font-family: Calibri; mso-bidi-font-style: italic;">You can have a philosophical argument on if any sort of enhanced interrogation is ever justified, regardless of the lives saved.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>Some people, incredibly, would rather see such plots go forward rather than sully their hands at the dirty work of intelligence collection.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>But that’s different from the legal argument on whether the three Al Qaeda terrorists that were waterboarded were legally tortured.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>I would have to say, based on the preponderance of evidence that they were not.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>As I said at the beginning of this piece, I do personally regard waterboarding as torture, however there are several other techniques I may feel personally are torture that just don’t meet the legal standard.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>Letting me drink a couple of beers and then not letting me pee for instance.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>President Obama has already banned the use of waterboarding as an interrogation technique by executive order, but don’t look for the Congress to try bring up another bill to outlaw the technique, like they did during the Bush administration.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>I imagine if there is another 9/11 style attack, that executive order will quietly be rescinded, in a closing the barn door after the horses are out kind of way.</span></em></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><em><span style="font-size: 14pt; line-height: 115%; font-style: normal; font-family: Calibri; mso-bidi-font-style: italic;">So we now live in a world in which we can waterboard Mancow, or any other publicity whore, but not Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, or if we ever catch him Osama Bin Ladin.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>I’m not sure we could even force KSM to listen to Mancow. Maybe if KSM would agree to be waterboarded <span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>for charity…</span></em></p>
<p> </p>
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		<title>A comedy of liars&#8230;</title>
		<link>http://muchedumbre.com/a-comedy-of-liars</link>
		<comments>http://muchedumbre.com/a-comedy-of-liars#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 May 2009 00:32:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>ekg</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[MucheDumbre]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Proper Gander (a skewed view)]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[3 of the 4 dates the CIA said they briefed Graham were in error]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Bill Clinton]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Bob Graham]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Chris Wallace]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[CIA]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[CIA destroyed torture video tapes]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[code-word clearance briefing]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[community is incompetent]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Congress]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Democratic party]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[dishonest and vicious political effort I've seen in my lifetime]]></category>
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		<category><![CDATA[HOEKSTRA]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[I think this is the most despicable]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[intelligence agency]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Lewinsky]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[misinformed congress]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Nancy Pelosi]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Newt Gingrich]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[partisan attacks]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Porter Goss]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Rep. Pete Hoekstra]]></category>
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		<category><![CDATA[republicans]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[she disqualifies herself for being speaker of the House]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[torture briefing]]></category>
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		<description><![CDATA[
Hypocrisy
1. a pretense of having a virtuous character, moral or religious beliefs or principles, etc., that one does not really possess.

If there is one party who can really step into a mess, it&#8217;s the Democratic party.
If there is one party who can exploit that mess, it&#8217;s the Republican party. The republicans have a viciousness to [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote>
<h2>Hypocrisy</h2>
<h2>1. a pretense of having a virtuous character, moral or religious beliefs or principles, etc., that one does not really possess.</h2>
</blockquote>
<p>If there is one party who can really step into a mess, it&#8217;s the Democratic party.</p>
<p>If there is one party who can exploit that mess, it&#8217;s the Republican party. The republicans have a viciousness to them, a &#8216;pit bull&#8217; streak that finds an opening and goes in for the kill. And like any wild animal when cornered, the attack is bloody and savage. Just look at the attacks on Nancy Pelosi over the last couple of weeks.</p>
<blockquote>
<h3>&#8220;I think this is the most despicable, dishonest and vicious political effort I&#8217;ve seen in my lifetime.&#8221;</h3>
<h3>&#8220;She is a trivial politician, viciously using partisanship for the narrowist of purposes, and she dishonors the Congress by her behavior.&#8221; -<a href="http://blogs.abcnews.com/thenote/2009/05/gingrich-pelosi.html" target="_blank">Newt Gingrich</a></h3>
</blockquote>
<p>Accusations of &#8216;viciously using partisanship&#8217; from <a href="http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,258001,00.html" target="_blank">Newt Gingrich</a> are not only comical but over the top,unabated, pure hypocrisy. Newt is the poster child for being the loudest one to complain, condemn and prosecute&nbsp; someone else for doing exactly the same thing he was secretly doing.&nbsp; As if his infidelity while his mission to attack Bill Clinton during the Lewinsky affair wasn&#8217;t proof enough of his hypocrisy, his problem of using tax-exempt funding to advance his political goals should have limited his &#8216;Pelosi dishonors Congress&#8217; rhetoric. But, it didn&#8217;t.<span id="intelliTXT"><span style="font-size: x-small;"><br />
</span></span></p>
<p>Newt is old news though, an unimportant politically partisan pitbull hoping his hypocrisy has been forgiven. It hasn&#8217;t.&nbsp; But what about newer more relevant GOP members?</p>
<blockquote>
<h3>&#8220;Lying to the Congress of the United States is a crime,&#8221; <a href="http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-pelosi18-2009may18,0,1178660.story" target="_blank">Boehner said Sunday on CNN’s “State of the Union.”</a> &#8220;And if the speaker is accusing the CIA and other intelligence officials of lying or misleading the Congress, then she should come forward with evidence and turn that over to the Justice Department so they can be prosecuted.&#8221;</p>
<p>He added: &#8220;And if that&#8217;s not the case, I think she ought to apologize to our intelligence professionals around the world.&#8221;</h3>
</blockquote>
<p>That&#8217;s right, Nancy Pelosi should apologize to the CIA from claiming that they have misinformed congress. It is a disparaging remark and like Boehner says, she needs to <a href="http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0509/22745.html" target="_blank">&#8216;put up or shut up&#8217;</a>.</p>
<p>It doesn&#8217;t matter that Pelosi&#8217;s accusations that the CIA memo&#8217;s are misleading seem to be panning out or that even some Republicans agree that the briefing notes contain many errors, such as briefings that listed former Chairman Porter Goss as the head of committee when Rep. Pete Hoekstra had already taken over. Because Hoekstra says, <a href="http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/dems-rally-around-pelosi-while-republicans--ponder-next-move-2009-05-19.html" target="_blank">those errors are meaningless</a></p>
<p>Of Course <em>those</em> errors are meaningless. It doesn&#8217;t matter that 2 separate briefings have a low-level staffer as&nbsp; being in on the top-secret,code-word clearance briefings. It&#8217;s meaningless that this staffer says he was actually asked to leave, which would be expected since he&nbsp; only&nbsp; two walked members to the room. It doesn&#8217;t matter that this staffer,Paul Juola, has asked the CIA to &#8220;immediately correct this record.”</p>
<p>It doesn&#8217;t matter that former Senate Intelligence Committee Chairman Bob Graham came out and said not only did the CIA <a href="http://www.thedailybeast.com/cheat-sheet/item/graham-cia-lied-to-me-too/secrets/" target="_blank">hide details from him</a> during his briefings, but that 3 of the 4 dates the CIA said they briefed Graham were in error</p>
<blockquote>
<h3><em>&#8230;</em>he(Graham) asked agency officials to confirm how many times they briefed him on torture. They gave him four dates, but after Graham went through his personal records and disproved three of those dates, he said the agency admitted their mistake and confirmed that he had, in fact, received only one briefing.</h3>
</blockquote>
<p>When our intelligence agency says they briefed someone 4 times and they really only briefed them once, when they say the person who headed&nbsp; the committee was someone who had already been replaced, when they say that they allowed a staffer in on a code-word clearance briefing, none of it is relevant, in fact it&#8217;s &#8216;meaningless&#8217;. But when you go out in public and say that the CIA is misleading congress, that disqualifies you as from continuing as speaker. Or so <a href="http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0509/22662.html" target="_blank">Newt Gingrich says</a>.</p>
<blockquote>
<h3>“To have the person third in line to be president say that the <a href="http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0509/22627.html" target="_blank">CIA misleads</a> us all the time is so utterly irresponsible and such an attack on the men and women who are risking their lives &#8230; that she disqualifies herself for being speaker of the House,”</h3>
</blockquote>
<p><a id="KonaLink0" style="text-decoration: underline ! important; position: static;" href="http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0509/22662.html" target="_blank"></a></p>
<div id="preLoadLayer0" style="position: absolute; z-index: 4000; top: -32px; left: -18px; display: none;"><a id="KonaLink0" style="text-decoration: underline ! important; position: static;" href="http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0509/22662.html" target="_blank"><img style="border: 0px none ;" src="http://kona.kontera.com/javascript/lib/imgs/grey_loader.gif" alt=""/></a></div>
<p>Now, this has nothing to do with partisan attacks, Newt,Boehner and Hoekstra wouldn&#8217;t do that. No, they are truly outraged that someone would smear the CIA by claiming they have mislead congress on some issue&#8230;</p>
<p>Well, except when it&#8217;s Hoekstra, and the CIA has just destroyed torture video tapes that they were warned not to destroy. When that happens</p>
<blockquote>
<h3>&#8230;it&#8217;s important for Congress to hold this community accountable. This community did not tell &#8212; the CIA did not tell us about the existence of these tapes. They did not tell us that they were going to be destroyed. They need &#8212; there&#8217;s a Constitutional responsibility for them to keep Congress informed and they have not and we need to hold them accountable</h3>
</blockquote>
<p>Or so<a href="http://rawstory.com/news/2007/Harman_sees_Constitutional_crisis_over_CIA_1216.html" target="_blank"> Mr. Hoekstra says.</a></p>
<p>It&#8217;s OK<em> </em>for Mr. Hoekstra to say the CIA&nbsp; mislead Congress. Even better, when you are on Fox News being interviewed by Chris Wallace, it&#8217;s ok to get down right nasty on the CIA.</p>
<blockquote>
<h2>WALLACE: Congress man Hoekstra, Hayden appeared this week before your committee. Are you satisfied that over the years the CIA acted in good faith?</h2>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<h2>HOEKSTRA: No, I&#8217;m not. There are certain statements that might have been misleading to Congress as to exactly what existed. I think you&#8217;ve got a systemic problem here. I think the community is incomPetent. It is arrogant. And it has developed &#8212; it&#8217;s become political. This &#8212; you know, you take a look at wmd in iraq. They were wrong.</h2>
</blockquote>
<p>Hoekstra went even farther than just calling them arrogant,incompetant and saying that they have mislead congress , he also said</p>
<blockquote>
<h3>&#8230;you&#8217;ve got a community that&#8217;s incomPetent. They are arrogant and they are political, and they don&#8217;t believe that they are accountable to anybody. They don&#8217;t believe that they&#8217;re accountable to the president. They&#8217;ve clearly demonstrated through the tapes case that they don&#8217;t believe they are accountable to Congress. And when we are at war, that is a terrible position for the intelligence community to be. If they had done what they are supposed to do on the tapes, keep us informed, listen to the kind of recommendations that my colleague Jane Harman made to them, we wouldn&#8217;t even be having this discussion today. But because of their arrogance and their willingness to move independent, that&#8217;s it.</h3>
</blockquote>
<p>The CIA? they&#8217;re political? They don&#8217;t believe they are accountable the President much less Congress? They&#8217;re incompetent?&nbsp; These are just a few of the things that are OK to say about the CIA, unless of course you&#8217;re Nancy Pelosi.</p>
<p>Quick question, if the CIA mislead Congress, destroyed evidence&#8230; are arrogant,political,incompetent and admittedly prone to briefing errors.. why exactly are we or the GOP taking anything the CIA says over Nancy Pelosi?</p>
<p>It wouldn&#8217;t be to get the stink of <a href="http://themoderatevoice.com/32367/faux-news-reveals-true-motivation-behind-attacks-on-pelosi/" target="_blank">another political</a> <a href="http://www.seattlepi.com/opinion/361447_thomas02.html" target="_blank"></a>land-mine off of them would it?</p>
<blockquote>
<h3>&#8220;..when you say that the community is incompetent, I&#8217;m telling you I don&#8217;t have confidence in the community. You know, I have high confidence that the community continues to be broken and is not giving us as policymakers the information that we need to make good decisions.-HOEKSTRA</h3>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style="text-align: center;"><p><span style="text-decoration: underline;">Hypocrisy</span></p>
</p>
<h3 style="text-align: left;">&#8220;She is a trivial politician, viciously using partisanship for the narrowist of purposes, and she dishonors the Congress by her behavior.&#8221; -<a href="http://blogs.abcnews.com/thenote/2009/05/gingrich-pelosi.html" target="_blank">Newt Gingrich</a></h3>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p style="text-align: center;">
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p style="text-align: center;">
</blockquote>
<p style="text-align: center;">1. a pretense of having a virtuous character, moral or religious beliefs or principles, etc., that one does not really possess.</p>
<p style="text-align: center;">
<h2>UPDATE</h2>
<p><object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/zYoGi4i8jck&amp;hl=en&amp;fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/zYoGi4i8jck&amp;hl=en&amp;fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></param></object></p>
</p>
<p>Yes, the CIA has lied to Congress and covered it up. I think Newt might be the one who should step down and go back into hiding, after apologizing to Pelosi of course&#8230;</p>
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		<pubDate>Tue, 12 May 2009 21:28:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>ekg</dc:creator>
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		<description><![CDATA[vote now!
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</p>
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</p>
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		<title>HE SHOT HIS DOG!&#8230; oh yeah, his wife was hit too</title>
		<link>http://muchedumbre.com/he-shot-his-dog-oh-yeah-his-wife-was-hit-too</link>
		<comments>http://muchedumbre.com/he-shot-his-dog-oh-yeah-his-wife-was-hit-too#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 May 2009 15:52:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>ekg</dc:creator>
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		<category><![CDATA[Richard McTear]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Russ Rollins]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Shannon Burke]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[shoots dog and wife]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[WESH]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[WTKS]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://muchedumbre.com/?p=427</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#8217;m not going to get into the story because we&#8217;ve all heard everything there is to hear, but I can&#8217;t stay silent on one glaring problem with people today.

Shannon Burke accused of shooting of dog, wife

Notice anything?

Shannon Burke arrested for shooting dog, grazing wife

Here is the first few sentences from another news site
Who else gets [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not going to get into <a href="http://www.wesh.com/news/19341869/detail.html" target="_blank">the story</a> because we&#8217;ve all heard everything there is to hear, but I can&#8217;t stay silent on one glaring problem with people today.</p>
<blockquote>
<h2><a href="http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/orl-shannon-burke-arrested-photos,0,7363546.photogallery" target="_blank">Shannon Burke accused of shooting of dog, wife</a></h2>
</blockquote>
<p>Notice anything?</p>
<blockquote>
<h2 class="entry-header"><a href="http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/news_local_namesblog/2009/05/shannon-burke-arrested-for-shooting-dog-grazing-wife.html" target="_blank">Shannon Burke arrested for shooting dog, grazing wife<img class="alignright" src="http://www.orlandosentinel.com/media/photo/2009-05/46657577.jpg" alt="" width="350" height="228" /></a></h2>
</blockquote>
<p class="entry-header">Here is the first few sentences from another <a href="http://weblogs.sun-sentinel.com/news/specials/weirdflorida/blog/2009/05/shannon_burke_43_hosts_the.html" target="_blank">news site</a></p>
<blockquote><p><img class="alignnone" src="http://shapiroberezin.com/images/shapiroberezin---quotation%20mark.jpg" alt="" width="77" height="73" /><em>Who else gets angry at their dog and threatens to shoot it? </em></p>
<p><em>Cops say Burke got ticked at his dog, a Cavalier King Charles Spaniel. His solution: Pick up a handgun and threaten to shoot it.</em></p>
<p><em>The gun discharged, and the bullet went through the dog&#8217;s leg. The same bullet struck his wife Catherine on the side of her head, reports <a href="http://www.wesh.com/news/19341869/detail.html" target="new">WESH News</a>.</em></p></blockquote>
<p>It takes that writer 53 words to finally mention the wife that was also shot, <em>53</em> words before she can get a quick nod in her direction. The entire piece is about the poor dog, what kind of dog, the threatening and shooting of the dog and Oh by the way his wife was shot in the head too.</p>
<p>After the Orlando Sentinel<a href="http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/breakingnews/orl-shannon-burke-wife-photos,0,1752804.photogallery" target="_blank"> released photos</a> of Catherine Burke and  her dog,  the <a href="http://monsters.fm/main.html" target="_blank">Monsters of the Morning</a>, the morning show on <a href="http://www.wtks.com/" target="_blank">WTKS 104.1</a> took calls on the whole fiasco because they understood the need for people to vent their feelings on this. They also understood that all other locals news and radio programs were going to take advantage of the situation and talk about it so  they decided why not let the people hear and say what they want from the station at the center of the controversy.</p>
<p>Here&#8217;s the problem. I can&#8217;t count how many calls or how many posts on the <a href="http://muchedumbre.com/forum/index.php/board,77.0.html" target="_blank">muchedumbre </a>forum have <span id="query" class="query">lamented</span> over the dog first and then if she&#8217;s lucky, over Catherine.  There is even a thread titled</p>
<blockquote>
<h2><a href="../forum/index.php/topic,24185.0.html">Burke fired&#8230;he injured his dog and wife but killed his career at REAL radio</a></h2>
</blockquote>
<p>In another thread, a post that reads..</p>
<blockquote><p><img class="alignnone" src="http://shapiroberezin.com/images/shapiroberezin---quotation%20mark.jpg" alt="" width="54" height="51" /><em>What a class guy. What&#8217;s a king charles wiegh, 5 maybe 10 lbs.</em></p></blockquote>
<p>Nothing about the his wife Catherine at all, just the dog.</p>
<p>One caller to the Monsters said Shannon Burke was on the same level as <a href="http://blogs.usatoday.com/ondeadline/2009/05/police-says-fla-man-tosses-infant-from-car-on-i275.html" target="_blank">Richard McTear</a>. Who is Richard McTear? Oh well he&#8217;s the scum-bag asshole who  after getting into a fight with his 17 year old girlfriend, grabbed their 3 month old baby and threw him on the concrete and then kidnapped him. As if that wasn&#8217;t enough, while driving down   I-275 he threw the baby out the window of his car killing him.  Now, why did this caller equate Shannon Burke to this reptile?  Because he shot his dog. Not because he also shot his wife, but because he shot the dog (the dog lived by the way). When called on this  by <a href="http://www.monsters.fm/pages/dirtyjim_page.html" target="_blank">Dirty Jim</a> the caller replied that the dog was innocent, the wife though&#8230;. well she could have left at anytime.</p>
<p>The dog.. was innocent&#8230; meaning what? That Catherine  deserved what she got because she didn&#8217;t leave? I really don&#8217;t know if that&#8217;s what people mean when they say something like that but it is a valid question that I would like someone to answer because I really don&#8217;t know of another way to take that kind of statement.</p>
<p style="text-align: center;">
<p>I am not excusing what Burke did in any way. But I am questioning the headlines when they read <strong><span style="color: #888888;">&#8220;Radio personalty shoots dog <em>and wife</em>&#8221; </span></strong>and even more I question why there seems to be so little outrage over the shooting of his wife Catherine? Even the Orlando Sentinel when putting the <a href="http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/breakingnews/orl-shannon-burke-wife-photos,0,1752804.photogallery" target="_blank">photos up on their website</a>, put <em>the dog&#8217;s photos up first!</em></p>
<p>We love our pets, we think of them like our children&#8230;but what Shannon did is not on the same level as the man who threw his own baby onto the concrete and then chucked him out of his car window while he was driving down the interstate. One is the horrific death of an infant, the other is a dog who was shot in the leg and lost it&#8217;s tail.  They are both sad, but they do not carry the same weight.</p>
<p>Maybe it&#8217;s all kind of like they say in Hollywood, never work with children and animals. Well, never get shot in the head by your husband after he shoots the dog because the dog will get the sympathy because it was innocent and you? Well you could have left.</p>
<p>I think we need to re-arrange some priorities here&#8230;</p>
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		<item>
		<title>An Exposé on torture</title>
		<link>http://muchedumbre.com/an-expose-on-torture</link>
		<comments>http://muchedumbre.com/an-expose-on-torture#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Apr 2009 11:38:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>ekg</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[MucheDumbre]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Proper Gander (a skewed view)]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[71 times that he either could not recall or did not remember]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[9/11]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[ABC News]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[ABC News Video]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Abu Zubaydah]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Al Qaeda]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[al Qaida]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Alberto Gonzales]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Ali Soufan]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[and Hani 3]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Banana Republic]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Barton Gellman]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Bin Laden]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[broke after only 35 seconds]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Bush administration]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[CBS news]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[CIA]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[CIA destroyed video-tape]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[CIA video-taped]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Condelezza Rice]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Congress]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Dick Cheney]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[FBI]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[George Tenet]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Gonzales]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[ground zero]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Hani 1]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Hani 2]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[John Ashcroft]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[John Kiriakou]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Jose Padilla]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[justice department]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Khalid Shaikh Mohammad]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[KSM]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[lilmike]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Marc Thiessen]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Newsweek]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[NSA]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[NSA Rice]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[one of the top three leaders in the organization."]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[one percent doctrine]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Osama Bin Laden]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[President Bush]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[President George W. Bush]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Ron Suskind]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Saddam Hussein]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[terrorist conspiracy]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[The One Percent Doctrine]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[the Washington Post]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[torture memos]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[verbally approved  the water-boarding]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Vice President]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[water-boarded 83 times]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[water-boarding]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[White House]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://muchedumbre.com/?p=405</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[In July 2002, Condoleezza Rice, national security adviser to former President George W. Bush, verbally approved  the water-boarding of an al Qaeda terrorist named Abu Zubaydah.  On August 1st, after ignoring dissenting legal opinion on the legality of water-boarding and whether it was ethical or even productive, then-Attorney General John Ashcroft, then-White House counsel [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In July 2002, Condoleezza Rice, national security adviser to former President George W. Bush, <a href="http://blog.taragana.com/n/rice-delivered-ok-to-cia-to-waterboard-al-qaida-suspect-as-bushs-national-security-adviser-34746/" target="_blank">verbally approved </a> the water-boarding of an al Qaeda terrorist named Abu Zubaydah.  On August 1st, after ignoring dissenting legal opinion on the legality of water-boarding and whether it was ethical or even productive, then-Attorney General John Ashcroft, then-White House counsel Alberto Gonzales and <a href="http://news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/doj/bybee80102ltr.html" target="_blank">the Justice Department </a>gave the green light to water-board Abu Zubaydah in what is now being called the &#8216;<a href="http://www.aclu.org/safefree/general/olc_memos.html" target="_blank">&#8216;torture memos&#8217;</a>. One memo, dated August 2002, grants authorization to use &#8220;harsh interrogation techniques&#8221; on a high-ranking terrorist( Abu Zubaydah) on the grounds that previous methods had not been working.</p>
<div class="zemanta-img zemanta-action-dragged" style="margin: 1em; display: block; text-align: left;">
<div>
<dl class="wp-caption alignright" style="width: 210px;">
<dt class="wp-caption-dt"><a href="http://commons.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:RoveBush.jpg"><img title="President George W. Bush stands with Mrs. Laur..." src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ac/RoveBush.jpg/200px-RoveBush.jpg" alt="President George W. Bush stands with Mrs. Laur..." width="200" height="112" /></a></dt>
<dd class="wp-caption-dd zemanta-img-attribution" style="font-size: 0.8em;">Image via <a href="http://commons.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:RoveBush.jpg">Wikipedia</a></dd>
</dl>
</div>
</div>
<p style="text-align: left;">Zubaydah was water-boarded 83 times  that month.</p>
<p style="text-align: left;">According to many, including <a href="http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=ZTEzMjc3YWU3ZmJiNzA3NThhNjdiMmY4MDkzNjRlMDY" target="_blank">Marc Thiessen</a> President Bush&#8217;s former speech writer, the technique was a success. Jose Padilla was apprehended in Chicago on May 8,2002 because of information learned through Zubaydah&#8217;s water-boarding sessions.</p>
<p style="text-align: left;">The problem with this is, in May 2002 Condelezza Rice hadn&#8217;t yet given her verbal authorization to water-board and the Justice Department, along with Gonzales and Ashcroft hadn&#8217;t yet given the written authority. Rice&#8217;s authorization wouldn&#8217;t come for another 2 months and the &#8216;Torture memo&#8217; authorizing  the water-boarding would not be written for another month after that. If Abu Zubaydah gave interrogators the information needed to apprehend Jose Padilla, he did it without being water-boarded or he was water-boarded without consent of the NSA,White House or the justice department.<em>&#8220;</em></p>
<blockquote style="text-align: left;">
<h2 style="text-align: right;"><img class="alignnone" src="http://trudymorgancole.files.wordpress.com/2007/08/quotes2.jpg" alt="" width="62" height="58" /><em>one of the top </em></h2>
<h2 style="text-align: right;"><em>three leaders </em></h2>
<h2 style="text-align: right;"><em>in the [</em><em>al-Qaeda] </em><em>organization.</em></h2>
</blockquote>
<p style="text-align: left;">Another question raised is, if Abu Zubaydah was cooperating  and had already given up the information that lead to Padilla&#8217;s capture in May, then why did he need to be water-boarded 83 times in August?</p>
<p class="dateline" style="text-align: left;">In a story from <a href="http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/03/29/politics/washingtonpost/main4901154.shtml?tag=topHome;topStories" target="_blank">CBS news, dated March 29, 2009,</a> a  former senior government officials said that not only was the information Abu Zubaydah gave after being tortured worthless, but it also caused the FBI and CIA to run aimlessly around the globe chasing made up shadows.</p>
<p class="dateline" style="text-align: left;">President Bush, in order to justify what he was allowing to take place, called Abu Zubaydah <em>&#8220;al Qaeda&#8217;s chief of operations&#8221;</em> and <a href="http://voices.washingtonpost.com/white-house-watch/looking-backward/bushs-torture-rationale-debunk.html" target="_blank"><em>&#8220;one of the top three leaders in the organization.&#8221;</em></a></p>
<p class="dateline" style="text-align: left;">Not long after his capture though, this was found to be <a href="http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/03/29/politics/washingtonpost/main4901154.shtml?tag=topHome;topStories" target="_blank">inaccurate..</a></p>
<blockquote style="text-align: left;">
<p class="dateline"><em>Abu Zubaida was not even an official member of al Qaeda, according to a portrait of the man </em></p>
<div class="zemanta-img zemanta-action-dragged" style="margin: 1em; display: block;">
<div>
<dl class="wp-caption alignright" style="width: 204px;">
<dt class="wp-caption-dt"><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Bin_laden_12_27a.jpg"><img title="Osama bin Laden in the December 2001 video" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/af/Bin_laden_12_27a.jpg" alt="Osama bin Laden in the December 2001 video" width="194" height="165" /></a></dt>
<dd class="wp-caption-dd zemanta-img-attribution" style="font-size: 0.8em;">Image via <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Bin_laden_12_27a.jpg">Wikipedia</a></dd>
</dl>
</div>
</div>
<p><em>that emerges from court documents and interviews with current and former intelligence, law enforcement and military sources. Rather, he was a &#8220;fixer&#8221; for radical Muslim ideologues, and he ended up working directly with al Qaeda only after Sept. 11 &#8211; and that was because the United States stood ready to invade Afghanistan.</em></p>
<p class="dateline">
</blockquote>
<p class="dateline">This is not to say Zubaydah wasn&#8217;t a criminal or even part of a terrorist conspiracy, but he was not what he was water-boarded for. He was being water-boarded, so they told us, because he was the number 3 in al Qaeda, he wasn&#8217;t cooperating and he knew things that would help us stop the next wave of the attacks.</p>
<blockquote>
<h2 style="text-align: right;"><img class="alignnone" src="http://trudymorgancole.files.wordpress.com/2007/08/quotes2.jpg" alt="" width="62" height="58" /><em>a senior terrorist leader </em></h2>
<h2 style="text-align: right;"><em>and a trusted associate of Osama bin Laden</em></h2>
</blockquote>
<p>But was he a high-ranking Al Qeada member with close ties to Osama Bin Laden? Was he uncooperative under normal interrogations? Author Ron Suskind wrote, which <a href="http://voices.washingtonpost.com/white-house-watch/looking-backward/bushs-torture-rationale-debunk.html" target="_blank">the Washington Post</a> has confirmed, that President Bush was so invested in Zubayduh that another question that be must be asked is; is it possible that his ties to Bin Laden or his level of cooperation really didn&#8217;t matter at some point?</p>
<p>Suskind writes in his book, <a href="http://www.ronsuskind.com/theonepercentdoctrine/" target="_blank">&#8220;The One Percent Doctrine&#8221;</a> which <a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/19/AR2006061901211.html" target="_blank">Barton Gellman</a> reviews, that not only was Zubayduh just the &#8216;go-to guy&#8217; for minor purposes, but  he was also mentally ill.</p>
<blockquote><p><em>Abu Zubaydah, his captors discovered, turned out to be mentally ill and nothing like the pivotal figure they supposed him to be. CIA and FBI analysts, poring over a diary he kept for more than a decade, found entries &#8220;in the voice of three people: Hani 1, Hani 2, and Hani 3&#8243; &#8212; a boy, a young man and a middle-aged alter ego. All three recorded in numbing detail &#8220;what people ate, or wore, or trifling things they said.&#8221; Dan Coleman, then the FBI&#8217;s top al-Qaeda analyst, told a senior bureau official, &#8220;This guy is insane, certifiable, split personality.&#8221;</em></p></blockquote>
<p>During this time President Bush&#8217;s outward proclamations were that we had captured a major leader in Bin Laden&#8217;s network. Privately though he wasn&#8217;t so sure, at one point even <a href="http://voices.washingtonpost.com/white-house-watch/looking-backward/bushs-torture-rationale-debunk.html" target="_blank">asking George Tenet</a> &#8220;<em>&#8216;I said he was important,&#8217;</em></p>
<div class="zemanta-img zemanta-action-dragged" style="margin: 1em; display: block;">
<div>
<dl class="wp-caption alignright" style="width: 141px;">
<dt class="wp-caption-dt"><a href="http://www.amazon.com/One-Percent-Doctrine-Ron-Suskind/dp/1416527605%3FSubscriptionId%3D0G81C5DAZ03ZR9WH9X82%26tag%3Dzemanta-20%26linkCode%3Dxm2%26camp%3D2025%26creative%3D165953%26creativeASIN%3D1416527605"><img title="Cover of " src="http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51ybxiB3jJL._SL200_.jpg" alt="Cover of " width="131" height="200" /></a></dt>
<dd class="wp-caption-dd zemanta-img-attribution" style="font-size: 0.8em;">Cover of <a href="http://www.amazon.com/One-Percent-Doctrine-Ron-Suskind/dp/1416527605%3FSubscriptionId%3D0G81C5DAZ03ZR9WH9X82%26tag%3Dzemanta-20%26linkCode%3Dxm2%26camp%3D2025%26creative%3D165953%26creativeASIN%3D1416527605">The One Percent Doctrine</a></dd>
</dl>
</div>
</div>
<p><em> &#8230;&#8217;You&#8217;re not going to let me lose face on this, are you?&#8217;</em></p>
<p>To which Tenet replied, <em>&#8220;&#8216;No Sir, Mr. President.&#8217;&#8221;</em></p>
<p>The Chinese used water-boarding as a way not<em> </em>to get their enemies to confess their crimes, but to get them to <a href="http://www.alan.com/2009/04/22/us-used-communist-chinese-torture-methods/" target="_blank">confess to things <em>they</em></a> <em>had not</em> done. In the middle of 2002, what was going on that would require someone to force a person to falsely confess to something?</p>
<blockquote><p><em>The Bush administration applied relentless pressure on interrogators to use harsh methods on detainees in part to find evidence of cooperation between al Qaida and the late Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein&#8217;s regime, according to a former senior U.S. intelligence official and a former Army psychiatrist.</em></p></blockquote>
<p>It&#8217;s true that a link from those responsible for the 9/11 attack  to Saddam Hussein would have made the case for the war in Iraq that much easier, but is that the <a href="http://www.mcclatchydc.com/227/story/66622.html" target="_blank">reason for Zubaydah&#8217;s treatment</a>?</p>
<p>In 2002, this country was still reeling from the attacks only a few months earlier, crews were still digging out ground zero and our hearts were still broken into pieces as we remembered  those flag-draped remains being brought home to those who loved them. Would we have tortured <em>anyone</em> to get  any information telling us who, why and if there was another attack coming?</p>
<p>When Zubaydah was water-boarded in 2002, the CIA video-taped it. Some of the question we have today could be answered by just reviewing those tapes. Unfortunately, the CIA&#8217;s director, Michael Hayden had <a href="http://www.blnz.com/news/2008/05/10/destroyed_video_waterboarding_al-Qaida_detainees_15/_.html" target="_blank">them destroyed</a> for security reasons. But there are many principals left who can answer some of these questions.</p>
<p><a href="http://abcnews.go.com/video/playerIndex?id=4622610">ABC News Video</a></p>
<p style="text-align: left;">One of the 1st questions being, why was the Vice President the one to  give the order to use these techniques and where was President Bush during these discussions and decisions?</p>
<h2 style="text-align: right;"><img class="alignnone" src="http://trudymorgancole.files.wordpress.com/2007/08/quotes2.jpg" alt="" width="62" height="58" /><em>Allah had visited </em></h2>
<h2 style="text-align: right;"><em>him in his cell</em></h2>
<h2 style="text-align: right;"><em>during the night and </em></h2>
<h2 style="text-align: right;"><em>told him to cooperate,&#8221;</em></h2>
<p>Do we <a href="http://muchedumbre.com/banana-republic" target="_blank">&#8216;cross the Rubicon&#8217;</a> as my <a href="http://muchedumbre.com/author/lilmike" target="_blank">colleague</a> says and open an investigation of the previous administration? And if by doing so, do we damn all other Presidents who come after him? Dick Cheney wants more memo&#8217;s released so that his side of the story can be told. But will he stand before congress and give his side <em>under oath</em> is the question. Judging by the last time his administration was under oath in in front of Congress..</p>
<blockquote><p><em>In several hours before the Judiciary Committee on Thursday, Gonzales said he had done nothing improper in firing the eight prosecutors, but conceded the case had been badly handled. At the same time, <a href="http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2007-04-20-gonzales-prosecutors_N.htm" target="_blank">he said 71 times that he either could not recall </a>or did not remember conversations or events surrounding the dismissals.</em></p></blockquote>
<p>The answer to that question is not as clear as it should be.</p>
<p>Abu Zubaydah was captured in 2002, he was water-boarded 83 times in August 2002 for not cooperating with interrogators even though 3 months earlier he had given enough information for officials to arrest Jose Padilla. A CIA operative involved in handling high-value al Qaeda targets, John Kiriakou now retired, told <a href="http://abcnews.go.com/Story?id=3978231&amp;page=1" target="_blank">ABC News</a> that what happened to Zubaydah was in fact torture, but it was also necessary. He goes on to say  the water-boarding was so effective that Zubaydah <a href="http://abcnews.go.com/Story?id=3978231&amp;page=1" target="_blank">broke within 35 seconds </a>and the next day told investigators  that &#8220;Allah had visited him in his cell during the night and told him to cooperate&#8221; and that&#8230; &#8220;From that day on, he answered every question,&#8221;</p>
<p><img class="alignright" src="http://www.september11news.com/Dec26FlagDrapedBodies.jpg" alt="" width="201" height="270" /></p>
<p>If Zubaydah broke after only 35 seconds, broke to the point where he spoke with Allah and Allah told him to answer every question then why did he need to be water-boarded an additional 82 times that month?  The Chinese used water-boarding to make their victims give false confessions.  What question did he either refuse to answer or not know the answer too?</p>
<p>Before the release of the &#8216;torture memos&#8217; Kiriakou was sure about the number of water-boardings and even had actual quotes made by Zubaydah, but after the memo&#8217;s release, ABC contacted him and he had this to say</p>
<blockquote><p><strong><em>When I spoke to <a href="http://abcnews.go.com/Story?id=3978231&amp;page=1" target="_blank">ABC News</a> in December 2007 I was aware of Abu Zubaydah being water boarded on one occasion. It was after this one occasion that he revealed information related to a planned terrorist attack. As I said in the original interview, my information was second-hand. I never participated in the use of enhanced techniques on Abu Zubaydah or on any other prisoner, nor did I witness the use of such techniques.&#8221; </em></strong></p></blockquote>
<p>So who has the 1st hand information on this session where these comments were made? Who can answer if  Zubaydah was tortured before NSA Rice gave a verbal nod allowing it? Who can answer if Zubaydah was in fact cooperating with interrogators 3 months before the &#8220;Torture memo&#8217;s&#8221; were even put to paper? Who can answer if he really broke after only 35 seconds of one session or if he needed an additional 82 more before he gave information that had the CIA and FBI running all over the world to confirm? Did traditional interrogation methods work with Zubaydah? Did he give up the information he had on Jose Padilla and Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, did the Bush Administration really get &#8216;actionable intelligence&#8217; from by using these &#8216;enhanced&#8217; techniques? The man who really was there, <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/23/opinion/23soufan.html?_r=2&amp;partner=rss&amp;emc=rss" target="_blank">Ali Soufan says</a> he questioned Zubaydah from March to June 2002 using traditional methods and he was successful in gathering actionable intelligence and the information Zubaydah gave up on KSM and Jose Padilla came <em>before</em> he was water-boarded in 83 times in August. <a href="http://www.newsweek.com/id/195089" target="_blank">Mr. Soufan</a> goes on to say that not only were the enhanced technique unnecessary and useless, they even created a wall between the FBI and the CIA, similar to wall that impeded the sharing of information before 9/11. It was so detrimental to the rival bureaus that the person who knew Khalid Shaikh Mohammad more than anyone else in the government, <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/23/opinion/23soufan.html?_r=2&amp;partner=rss&amp;emc=rss" target="_blank">was  not allowed to speak with him</a>.</p>
<p>There are so many questions that need to be answered and we know the principals involved who need to be asked.  But the biggest question of all is, do we really want the answers? Do we really want to go down that road and if so, just how far are we willing travel on it?</p>
<h6 class="zemanta-related-title" style="font-size: 1em;">Related articles by Zemanta</h6>
<ul class="zemanta-article-ul">
<li class="zemanta-article-ul-li"><a href="http://www.americablog.com/2009/04/how-bush-administration-waterboarded.html"> How the Bush administration waterboarded a low-level operative, who was brain-damaged, 83 times </a> (americablog.com)</li>
<li class="zemanta-article-ul-li"><a href="http://firedoglake.com/2009/04/23/fbi-zubaydah-interrogator-calls-george-bush-a-liar-no-actionable-intelligence-gained-from-using-enhanced-interrogation-techniques/"> FBI Zubaydah Interrogator Calls George Bush a Liar: &#8220;No Actionable Intelligence Gained from Using Enhanced Interrogation Techniques&#8221; </a> (firedoglake.com)</li>
<li class="zemanta-article-ul-li"><a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8013759.stm"> Rice approved CIA waterboarding </a> (news.bbc.co.uk)</li>
<li class="zemanta-article-ul-li"><a href="http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2009098698_torture22.html?syndication=rss"> Released memos don&#8217;t answer age-old question: Does torture work? </a> (seattletimes.nwsource.com)</li>
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		<title>Banana Republic</title>
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		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Apr 2009 23:07:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>lilmike</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[MucheDumbre]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Abu Zubaida]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Arlo Guthrie]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[bradford memo]]></category>
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		<category><![CDATA[Khalid Sheikh Mohammed]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Leahy]]></category>
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Some wag once said that Obama keeps all of his promises; they just have an expiration date.  I guess that’s how we got from “President Barack Obama will not pursue the prosecution of Bush-era officials who devised torture policy against detainees” to it &#8220;is going to be more of a decision for the [...]]]></description>
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<dl class="wp-caption alignright" style="width: 191px;">
<dt class="wp-caption-dt"><a href="http://commons.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Khalid_Shaikh_Mohammed_after_capture.jpg"><img title="Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, upon capture." src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/20/Khalid_Shaikh_Mohammed_after_capture.jpg/200px-Khalid_Shaikh_Mohammed_after_capture.jpg" alt="Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, upon capture." width="181" height="144" /></a></dt>
<dd class="wp-caption-dd zemanta-img-attribution" style="font-size: 0.8em;">Image via <a href="http://commons.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Khalid_Shaikh_Mohammed_after_capture.jpg">Wikipedia</a></dd>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Times New Roman;"><span style="font-size: 14pt;">Some wag once said that Obama keeps all of his promises; they just have an expiration date.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>I guess that’s how we got from “<a href="http://blogs.abcnews.com/george/2009/04/obama-adminis-1.html">President Barack Obama will not pursue the prosecution of Bush-era officials who devised torture policy against detainees</a><strong>”</strong> to it </span><span style="font-size: 14pt; mso-ansi-language: EN;" lang="EN">&#8220;<a href="http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/04/21/obama-administration-bush_n_189521.html">is going to be more of a decision for the attorney general</a></span><span style="font-size: 14pt;">” within a few days.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>That was a quick turnaround, even by Obama standards.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>However events and leftie blogs pushed Obama rather quickly after the release of the “<a href="http://luxmedia.vo.llnwd.net/o10/clients/aclu/olc_05302005_bradbury.pdf">torture memos,</a>” which reveal the legal underpinning for what is euphemistically referred to as “enhanced interrogation.”</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: 14pt;"><span style="font-family: Times New Roman;"> </span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: 14pt;"><span style="font-family: Times New Roman;">The timing strikes me as odd considering just a week ago a <a href="http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/europe/04/14/gonzales.spain.gitmo/">Spanish court</a> decided to investigate whether to pursue charges against Bush administration officials who provided the legal underpinning for those interrogations.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>Then low and behold, the Obama administration declassifies those very documents written by those Justice Department lawyers.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>That could hardly be a coincidence.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>The message seems to be that the Obama administration will not attempt to protect and may even assist, in international prosecutions of Bush administration officials, and who knows, maybe even prosecute a few themselves.</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: 14pt;"><span style="font-family: Times New Roman;"> </span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: 14pt;"><span style="font-family: Times New Roman;">I took a look at the torture memos out of curiosity and to confirm that things people were saying were in there actually was.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>I’ve learned you can’t trust someone else’s interpretation.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>Full disclosure:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>I didn’t read the whole thing.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>I just don’t have the legal background to make a determination if the case the Justice Department attorneys tried to make made sense or not, but I was curious about a few things.</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: 14pt;"><span style="font-family: Times New Roman;"> </span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: 14pt;"><span style="font-family: Times New Roman;">First of all, what was the classification of these damn things?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>Looking at the pdf of the memo, I could see that the pages were all classified Top Secret (scribble scribble) NOFORN, but what was the caveat or code word that was scribbled out?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>I magnified and tried to see through the blackened areas, but no such luck.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>Just curious I guess.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>I was just wondering if it was a cool sounding codeword, Top Secret Maximum Hammer, or just something dorky, Top Secret Loosie Goosie? </span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: 14pt;"><span style="font-family: Times New Roman;"> </span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: 14pt;"><span style="font-family: Times New Roman;">Another thing; what was the deal with all the <a class="zem_slink" title="Waterboarding" rel="wikipedia" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterboarding">waterboarding</a>?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>The original leaks described it as the most successful interrogation technique since “good cop, bad cop.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span><a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/10/AR2007121002091_pf.html">Abu Zubaida</a><strong> </strong>supposedly broke after 35 seconds.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>However page 37 of the memo details something more complicated:</span></span></p>
<p><em style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;"><span style="font-size: 14pt;"><span style="font-family: Times New Roman;">&#8230;where authorized, it may be used for two &#8220;sessions&#8221; per day of up to two hours. During a session, water may be applied up to six times for ten seconds or longer (but never more than 40 seconds). In a 24-hour period, a detainee may be subjected to up to twelve minutes of water appliaction. See id. at 42.  Additionally, the waterboard may be used on as many as five days during a 30-day approval period.</span></span></em></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><em style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;"><span style="font-size: 14pt;"><span style="font-family: Times New Roman;">…The CIA used the waterboard “at least 83 times during August 2002” in the interrogation of Zubaida…and 183 times during March 2003 in the interrogation of KSM”</span></span></em></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: 14pt;"><span style="font-family: Times New Roman;"> </span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: 14pt;"><span style="font-family: Times New Roman;">So somebody check my math, but that that means either the guidelines for waterboarding are wrong, they ignored their own guidelines, or the number of waterboarding sessions is wrong, since the could not have waterboarded that many times in a month if they followed the guidelines.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>Or they are counting applications, instead of sessions.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>It’s too vague to tell.</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: 14pt;"><span style="font-family: Times New Roman;"> </span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: 14pt;"><span style="font-family: Times New Roman;">As far as I know, I’m the first person to discover this, so somebody give a prize or something.</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: 14pt;"><span style="font-family: Times New Roman;"> </span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: 14pt;"><span style="font-family: Times New Roman;">However I’m not the first person to notice the incongruity of it being reported that Zubaida broke after 35 seconds <em style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">and</em> being waterboarded 83 times in one month.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>I don’t see how both of those can be true.</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: 14pt;"><span style="font-family: Times New Roman;"> </span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: 14pt;"><span style="font-family: Times New Roman;">But like a 23 minute Arlo Guthrie song, that’s not what I’m here to talk about.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>OK well maybe a little, but what I am really worried about is the Obama administration deciding to settle scores.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>Since President Obama is the Attorney General’s boss, going from being not interested in pursuing prosecution of Bush era officials to saying it’s up to the Attorney General is tantamount to giving the green light to prosecute.</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: 14pt;"><span style="font-family: Times New Roman;"> </span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: 14pt;"><span style="font-family: Times New Roman;">Now I am of two minds on this.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>There is one part of me, the mean, hateful part, that would love to see lawyers have to take responsibility for writing legal opinions, and by taking responsibility I mean forced to pull their orange jumpsuits down in a dark corner of a federal prison and get doo doo raped.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>I’m not a fan of lawyers as you might notice.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>Generally, lawyers don’t have to take any responsibility for their poor performance. Their clients do. These lawyers, if prosecuted, certainly would.</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: 14pt;"><span style="font-family: Times New Roman;"> </span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: 14pt;"><span style="font-family: Times New Roman;">Also there is the precedent.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>Once one administration opens the door to prosecuting the previous administration for policies it disagreed with, every time there is a change in power, the new administration will do the same.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>In 4 years I could sit back and watch members of the Obama administration be indicted for all manner of crimes.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>What comes around goes around eh?</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: 14pt;"><span style="font-family: Times New Roman;"> </span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: 14pt;"><span style="font-family: Times New Roman;">But that is only one side.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>I have a more dominate opinion on this, not one based on score settling, hatred of the bar, or getting revenge on wrongs, real or otherwise, on the current administration at some point in the future, but based on reason, rule of law, and the dangers setting bad precedents.</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: 14pt;"><span style="font-family: Times New Roman;"> </span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: 14pt;"><span style="font-family: Times New Roman;"><span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>First of all, I’m not sure there is even a crime here.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>There may be a crime somehow under Spanish law, but I’m fairly certain there is no Federal Statute against giving a legal opinion that the current administration disagrees with.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>One can imagine the kangaroo courts if we decide it’s OK to prosecute judges for ruling on a decision that’s been overturned, or a legislator who votes for a law that is later found to be unconstitutional.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>That would be as criminal as anything those Bush Justice Department attorneys did.</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: 14pt;"><span style="font-family: Times New Roman;"> </span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: 14pt;"><span style="font-family: Times New Roman;">The precedent of one administration getting revenge on the previous one would be a bad one.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>Senator Leahy’s idea of a <a class="zem_llink zem_olink" href="http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D96885BO0&amp;show_article=1">truth and reconciliation commission</a>; as if going from the Bush administration to the Obama one is equivalent to eliminating apartheid, or the Nuremberg Trials, is ridiculous.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>During every election, we always like to repeat the old canard about “the peaceful exchange of power” but how long would that be true if we up the stakes every time <span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>political parties switch positions of power?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>If hundreds of administration officials could expect nothing but indictment if a rival party takes power, are we really not that far from Peron’s Argentina?</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: 14pt;"><span style="font-family: Times New Roman;"> </span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: 14pt;"><span style="font-family: Times New Roman;">It’s one thing to indict and prosecute officials who have actually done criminal wrongdoing, but I’ve noticed from my friends on the left is their tendency to want to criminalize policy differences.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">   </span>They would love to have Bush and Cheney doing the perp walk, weighed down with chains, but ask them what sort of charges its usually something vague, like “war crimes” or just that they were criminals.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>Their real crimes?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>Holding different policy positions.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>Not violating federal statutes.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>If we try to prosecute attorneys for writing legal opinions, that won’t be justice, it will be punishment.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>Punishment for losing the election.</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: 14pt;"><span style="font-family: Times New Roman;"> </span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: 14pt;"><span style="font-family: Times New Roman;">Once we cross that particular Rubicon, it’s damage that cannot be undone. Rome could never go back to it’s Republic, and if we allow score settling after every change of power, we won’t be able to go back either.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: 14pt;"><span style="font-family: Times New Roman;"><span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: 14pt;"><span style="font-family: Times New Roman;"> </span></span></p>
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		<title>When they first came&#8230; I didn&#8217;t speak up.</title>
		<link>http://muchedumbre.com/when-they-first-came-i-didnt-speak-up</link>
		<comments>http://muchedumbre.com/when-they-first-came-i-didnt-speak-up#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Apr 2009 02:29:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>ekg</dc:creator>
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		<description><![CDATA[I drove by our &#8216;tea-party&#8217; the other day  and 4 out of 5 signs said things like &#8220;Hannity we love you&#8221; , &#8220;Hannity 2012&#8243;, &#8220;Hannity is right&#8221;.  Hannity- Hannity- Hannity&#8230; these people were not protesting against  President Obama or taxes, they were cheering for Hannity. The best and scariest one I saw read, &#8220;Hannity/Limbaugh 2012&#8243;. [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I drove by our &#8216;tea-party&#8217; the other day  and 4 out of 5 signs said things like <em>&#8220;Hannity we love you&#8221; ,</em> <em>&#8220;Hannity 2012&#8243;</em>,<em> &#8220;Hannity is right&#8221;</em>.  Hannity- Hannity- Hannity&#8230; these people were not protesting against  President Obama <em>or</em> taxes, they were cheering <em>for</em> Hannity. The best and scariest one I saw read, <em>&#8220;Hannity/Limbaugh 2012&#8243;</em>. .. The Horror!</p>
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<dt class="wp-caption-dt"><a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/45299407@N00/3451511280"><img title="The Controverse 37 remix: The Taxman Cometh" src="http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3313/3451511280_da24332142_m.jpg" alt="The Controverse 37 remix: The Taxman Cometh" width="240" height="135" /></a></dt>
<dd class="wp-caption-dd zemanta-img-attribution" style="font-size: 0.8em;">Image by <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/45299407@N00/3451511280">oxmour</a> via Flickr</dd>
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<p>There were signs screaming about &#8220;Obama&#8217;s&#8221; Bailout&#8221;.. What the hell? That wasn&#8217;t President<em> Obama&#8217;s</em> bailout, it was <a href="http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/09/22/bush-pushes-to-pass-bailo_n_128314.html" target="_blank">George W Bush&#8217;s Bailout</a>, but since these lovers of  &#8216;fair and balance&#8221;<br />
were out to cheer for Sean Hannity, they didn&#8217;t know that..and having tried to tell them before, I just tried to ignore it.</p>
<p>They did not know it because Sean Hannity would rather keep their anger and hatred focused away from the man he spent  8 years defending and re-direct it at President Obama instead. Any kind of hatred will do, <a href="http://muchedumbre.com/guns-dont-kill-people" target="_blank">truthful or not.</a><img class="alignleft" src="http://images.huffingtonpost.com/gen/39887/thumbs/s-BUSHBOYS-large.jpg" alt="" width="260" height="190" /></p>
<p>A friend summed-up the situation the other day..</p>
<blockquote><p><img class="alignnone" src="http://images.webster-dictionary.org/dict/106/424184-quotation-mark.gif" alt="" width="49" height="38" /><em>&#8230;I&#8217;ve come to the consensus that these tea partys are where people who are *still* in shock or disgruntled (or both) that Obama is in office come together.They take comfort, coming together, rallying around any number of outrages&#8230;that aren&#8217;t really outrage worthy and doesn&#8217;t seem to have any merit in the substance they insist brings them together.  I think many there know this as well&#8230;but the rallies, forums, and group meet and greets make available an assemblage that encompasses a feel good zone, where they feel safe. </em></p></blockquote>
<p>These people that FNC (Fox News Channel) showed were carrying signs that say <em>&#8220;Obama=Socialist&#8221;</em> . Where the hell were they when Bush created the largest entitlement of all fucking time? Where were the signs when Bush was proving that</p>
<p><img class="aligncenter" src="http://www.frugal-cafe.com/public_html/frugal-blog/frugal-cafe-blogzone/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/cincinnati-protest2-march-20092.jpg" alt="" width="458" height="304" /></p>
<p><a href="http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123275512887811775.html" target="_blank">&#8216;government can always get bigger on every level and every way.&#8217; </a></p>
<p><em>&#8220;Well Obama&#8217;s a socialist and he wants me to pay for everyone&#8217;s healthcare&#8221; </em> is the canned answer I get when I bring that tidbit up..</p>
<blockquote>
<h5><img src="file:///C:/DOCUME~1/HP_Owner/LOCALS~1/Temp/moz-screenshot.jpg" alt="" /><img class="alignleft" src="http://images.webster-dictionary.org/dict/106/424184-quotation-mark.gif" alt="" width="49" height="38" /><em>In a way that was inconceivable when he took office, Mr. Bush &#8212; the advance man for the &#8220;ownership society,&#8221; smaller and more trustworthy government, and a humble foreign policy &#8212; increased the size and scope of the federal government to unprecedented levels. At the same time, he constantly flashed signs of secrecy, duplicity, ineffectiveness and outright incompetence.</em></h5>
<p><img class="alignright" src="http://www.americanuprisinginc.com/ProtestSignConstitution.jpg" alt="" width="268" height="201" /></p></blockquote>
<p>There were<em> &#8220;NO BIG Government&#8221; </em>signs  all over the place.. What the hell? Where were these when I was screaming about the<a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/16/us/16nsa.html?_r=3&amp;hp" target="_blank"> abuse that would happen with those wire-taps</a> and no knock warrants. Where were the signs then?</p>
<p>Hello? Patriot Act??  Where were the screams and cries of &#8220;Revolution&#8221; from the Right then?</p>
<p><em>&#8220;Oh it&#8217;s different when the government intrudes on each of us to make us safer&#8221;</em></p>
<p>Yes, yes it was different then because <a href="http://digg.com/d1nWIy" target="_blank">it was <em>worse</em>!</a> You lost the right to privacy, the right to an attorney, the right to confront your accusers, the right to a speedy trial, the right to be treated humanely. You lost <a href="http://www.lectlaw.com/def/h001.htm" target="_blank">Habeas Corpus</a></p>
<p>But the biggest hypocrisy of all? Signs and slogans and chants in Hannity&#8217;s Atlanta crowd screaming<br />
<em>Bailouts=Communism</em>&#8230; <em>Bailouts=Socialism</em>..<em>Tell Obama NO Bailouts</em>..  But wait? What the hell  John Rich song were these people dancing,screaming and going crazy over?<br />
<object classid="clsid:d27cdb6e-ae6d-11cf-96b8-444553540000" width="560" height="340" codebase="http://download.macromedia.com/pub/shockwave/cabs/flash/swflash.cab#version=6,0,40,0"><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true" /><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always" /><param name="src" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/i5LpRiTvUfw&amp;hl=en&amp;fs=1" /><embed type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="560" height="340" src="http://www.youtube.com/v/i5LpRiTvUfw&amp;hl=en&amp;fs=1" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true"></embed></object></p>
<p>Now, <a href="http://www.6lyrics.com/music/john_rich/lyrics/shuttin_detroit_down.aspx" target="_blank"><em>Shuttin</em>&#8216; <em>Detroit Down</em></a> is a great song. The problem is, it&#8217;s a song about New York big wig bankers getting a bailout, while Detroit gets nothing and slowly dies and those people were loving this song and it&#8217;s meaning. . Are you kidding me? The Bush administrations bailout<em> isn&#8217;t</em> Socialism <em>until </em>President Obama&#8217;s in office-then it&#8217;s totally Socialism&#8230; but asking you and me to bailout the automakers ISN&#8217;T Socialism because it&#8217;s just patriotic?</p>
<p style="text-align: left;">No, these people are only going against whatever Obama is for <img class="alignleft" src="http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3634/3449813695_882198eecb.jpg?v=0" alt="" width="450" height="338" /></p>
<p>and that&#8217;s fine. Protest, get out the word, start your grass-roots. I&#8217;m liberal.. I&#8217;m all for that kind of stuff for Christ&#8217;s sake. But protesting just to the breed hate and spread ignorance? What is that all about.</p>
<p>Another friend said something I believe sums everything up..</p>
<blockquote><p><img class="alignnone" src="http://images.webster-dictionary.org/dict/106/424184-quotation-mark.gif" alt="" width="49" height="38" /><em>A girl I know at work was talking to me the other day about these tea party&#8217;s. I don&#8217;t know if I like the idea of calling these rally&#8217;s tea party&#8217;s. I think of the Boston Tea Party and I think it should be left there, but anyway. She said, &#8216;<strong><span style="color: #888888;">now the Liberals know how it feels to have people talking shit about THEIR President the way they talked shit about ours and damned us for 8 years just for being Republicans.&#8217;</span></strong></em></p>
<p><em>And the thing is I&#8217;m getting the feeling some people are doing this, coming together if you will, for that reason.</em></p></blockquote>
<p>No, we don&#8217;t know or understand because  you are protesting things that you were quiet on under &#8216;your&#8217; president. Not <em>only</em> were you quiet, you were against the Liberals who were protesting. Had the destruction of your constitution actually bothered you, then why didn&#8217;t you say anything when Dick Cheney decided the Vice President office wasn&#8217;t a part of any branch of government and thus not answerable to anyone. No,  you are protesting to <em>&#8217;see how we like it!&#8217;</em>. You came into this match with that chip on your shoulder, a chip that said &#8220;<em>ok, lets see how you like it when we disagree with you&#8221;</em> and  when you can&#8217;t disagree with the truth,you are make it up as you go along.</p>
<p><em>&#8220;Obama is <a href="http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/04/gop-rep-obama-cutting-pentagon-budget-trying-to-charm-enemies-instead.php" target="_blank">cutting the pentagon&#8217;s budget</a>!&#8221; </em>WTF? It&#8217;s <a href="http://thinkprogress.org/2009/02/02/pentagon-budget-increase/" target="_blank">8%<span style="text-decoration: underline;"> <em>more</em></span></a> than it was last year. The Republican appointed Secretary of Defense is adding 8%  more this year to his budget, a number that is what President Bush recommended but somehow that equals <em>&#8220;OBama&#8217;s hates America and cuts pentagon budget&#8221;?</em></p>
<blockquote>
<h1><img class="alignnone" src="http://images.webster-dictionary.org/dict/106/424184-quotation-mark.gif" alt="" width="49" height="38" />Chorus of Protest Grows Over Report Warning of Right Wing Radicalization</h1>
<h2>Conservative groups are up in arms following a recent Department of Homeland Security report that warns of the possible radicalization of right-wing extremists.</h2>
</blockquote>
<p>That&#8217;s right, they are ok with extremism of any kind be labeled dangerous.. well except when it&#8217;s their extremists, then they are so pissed that this was incorporated into the &#8216;tea-parties&#8217; last week. Oh but where was their anger, their signs, their protest when 8 youths were arrested and charged with terrorism for<em> </em><a href="http://www.minnpost.com/stories/2009/04/06/7865/meet_the_rnc_eight_are_they_terrorists" target="_blank"><em>talking </em>about protesting the RNC convention</a>?</p>
<p>This crap is pathological at this point, the Right and <a href="http://www.foxnews.com/" target="_blank">FNC</a> are brewing anger and promoting anarchy and it&#8217;s not because they disagree with the spending- that didn&#8217;t bother them the last 8 years. It&#8217;s not because  of higher taxes because Reagan is the Conservative&#8217;s God and he raised them higher. It&#8217;s not about that whole  <a href="http://mediamatters.org/items/200903100001" target="_blank">2% of pork </a>in the budget either. It&#8217;s because they wanted Bush to be better than what he was, but he wasn&#8217;t. Then they were pinned into a corner of support because he fucked up so bad and our side was nailing him right and left for it. That&#8217;s when they got angry and not at the man who screwed up but at the people who were pointing out that the emperor had no clothes&#8230;And now,  like my friends co-worker said.. <em>&#8220;Lets see how you like it&#8221;</em></p>
<p>The difference is.. When we screamed about <a href="http://www.nationaljournal.com/about/njweekly/stories/2006/0209nj1.htm" target="_blank">Libby and leaks</a>&#8230; were we lying? Or wrong?</p>
<p>When we bitched about<a href="http://www.abcnews.go.com/Politics/story?id=7371452&amp;page=1" target="_blank"> torture</a>.. Were we lying? Or wrong?</p>
<p>When we said the new warrant-less wiretapping was <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/16/us/16nsa.html" target="_blank">going to be corrupted</a>, were we lying or wrong?</p>
<p>That&#8217;s the difference here. <em>WE</em> didn&#8217;t screw the pooch, we just pointed and screamed <em>&#8220;Get off my dog!&#8221;</em> and because the &#8220;Right&#8221; is pissed that we dared&#8230;now they are protesting?</p>
<p>Too little too late my friends,  your money was already taken and abused, your liberties have already been taken.. your protests can now be monitored and you can be labeled terrorist for them and you didn&#8217;t care a flip <a href="http://www.serendipity.li/cda/niemoll.html" target="_blank">until they came for you</a>.</p>
<p>Well&#8230;.Now we&#8217;ll see how you like it&#8230;</p>
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		<title>It won&#8217;t be over politics,religion&#8230;or Global Warming.</title>
		<link>http://muchedumbre.com/it-wont-be-over-politicsreligionor-global-warming</link>
		<comments>http://muchedumbre.com/it-wont-be-over-politicsreligionor-global-warming#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Apr 2009 21:42:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>ekg</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[MucheDumbre]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Proper Gander (a skewed view)]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[1-800 numbers]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[automated phone system]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[comedy]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[end of the world]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[press one]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://muchedumbre.com/?p=377</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I don&#8217;t care what climatologists, political hacks or religious extremists say.. Our world will not come to




Image via Wikipedia



an end because of any of their woes. Our world will come to an end because of the goddamn automated phone system.
True story.
My convection/microwave oven stopped working. I took it to the manufacturers repair shop and 7 [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t care what climatologists, political hacks or religious extremists say.. Our world will not come to</p>
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<dt class="wp-caption-dt"><a href="http://commons.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Castle_romeo2.jpg"><img title="Mushroom cloud with prominent condensation rin..." src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0b/Castle_romeo2.jpg/200px-Castle_romeo2.jpg" alt="Mushroom cloud with prominent condensation rin..." width="200" height="120" /></a></dt>
<dd class="wp-caption-dd zemanta-img-attribution" style="font-size: 0.8em;">Image via <a href="http://commons.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Castle_romeo2.jpg">Wikipedia</a></dd>
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<p>an end because of any of their woes. Our world will come to an end because of the goddamn automated phone system.</p>
<p>True story.</p>
<p>My convection/microwave oven stopped working. I took it to the manufacturers repair shop and 7 days later they called and said it was like brand new again. I brought the machine home, plugged it in and&#8230; it didn&#8217;t work. Ok, if that was end of the story it would be enough to make someone in the tension-filled climate we live go a little whack-o-nut, but no&#8230; that&#8217;s not the end.</p>
<p>I took the machine back to the prominent repair company and said <em>&#8220;Um, yeah&#8230; it&#8217;s still broken.&#8221; </em>The nice gentleman asked <em>&#8220;What seems to be the problem?&#8221;</em> My reply, <em>&#8220;The same thing that was the problem when I brought it down to you last week, that  you were to have fixed and sent it home &#8216;as good as new&#8217; yesterday&#8221;</em>. He looked confused, I don&#8217;t know why he would have been confused unless he had a memory like a child or a dog because he had just seen me 20 hrs earlier and explained to me everything they had fixed. One would think he would remember what was wrong. But whatever, I explained once again my problem.</p>
<p>Fast-forward 8 days. Now, if you have ever had to live without a microwave for any amount of time you already know how  <span>problematic <a class="theColor" href="http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/problematic"></a></span> that can be.</p>
<blockquote><p>&#8220;Hey honey, I&#8217;m just going to re-heat some leftovers for dinner because it&#8217;s been a super crazy day&#8221;&#8230;</p></blockquote>
<p>and then WHAM! No fucking microwave. So why bother with leftovers since you have to get out all  the pots and pans to reheat something. As if that wasn&#8217;t enough, try re-heating your coffee, making the kids a quick after school snack, rapid-thawing out the pork loin you forgot to take out that morning. Yes, not having a microwave is more difficult than not having indoor plumbing. Because a bucket and some air freshener can work in a pinch, but <em>nothing</em> replaces that good ole instant radiation-zapped mac and cheese.</p>
<p>So, tensions are already at a strained level when  I listen to the message on my machine.</p>
<blockquote><p><em>&#8220;Hello, this the very well known repair center, please call us about your microwave/convection oven that we have now had for a total of 20 days and tell us what is wrong with it so we can fix it, thank you and have a good day&#8221;</em></p></blockquote>
<p>Seems simple enough, let&#8217;s get out the phone book and call them right back. hmmmm, an (800) number, well that shouldn&#8217;t be too difficult I&#8217;ll just ask for the local shop&#8217;s number.</p>
<p><em>ring-ring</em></p>
<blockquote><p><em>&#8220;Hello and thank you for calling&#8230;para el español, marque nueve&#8221;</em></p></blockquote>
<p>and now, the fun begins.</p>
<blockquote><p><em>&#8220;If you are calling about a service appointment you scheduled, please press One&#8221;</em></p></blockquote>
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<dt class="wp-caption-dt"><a href="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/ba/Sears_Tower_ss.jpg/200px-Sears_Tower_ss.jpg"><img title="The Sears Tower in Chicago is the tallest buil..." src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/ba/Sears_Tower_ss.jpg/200px-Sears_Tower_ss.jpg" alt="The Sears Tower in Chicago is the tallest buil..." width="200" height="257" /></a></dt>
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<p>nope, not calling for that</p>
<blockquote><p><em>&#8220;If you are calling to schedule a service appointment, please press Two&#8221;</em></p></blockquote>
<p>nope, not calling for that</p>
<blockquote><p><em>&#8220;If you are calling to find a local repair center, please press Three&#8221;</em></p></blockquote>
<p>hmmm, well maybe that&#8217;s it but lets listen to the other options</p>
<p><em>&#8220;If you are calling about anything else, please say &#8216;Other&#8217;&#8221;</em></p>
<p>uhh.. well ok maybe I do need 3&#8230;.. &#8216;beep&#8217;</p>
<blockquote><p><em>&#8220;Please wait while I  transfer you&#8221;</em></p></blockquote>
<p>hmmm.hmmm.hmmmmmmmm</p>
<blockquote><p><em>&#8220;Please say your telephone number starting with the area code&#8221;</em></p></blockquote>
<p>&#8230; 321-555-5555</p>
<blockquote><p><em>&#8220;Thank you, You said 374-995-5959, is this correct?&#8221;</em></p></blockquote>
<p>uh, no</p>
<blockquote><p><em>&#8220;I&#8217;m sorry, please say your telephone number starting with the area code&#8221;</em></p></blockquote>
<p>321-555-5555!</p>
<blockquote><p><em>&#8220;Thank you, you said 965-555-9999, is this correct?&#8221;</em></p></blockquote>
<p>NO!</p>
<blockquote><p><em>&#8220;I&#8217;m sorry, please enter your phone number using the key pad&#8221;</em></p></blockquote>
<p>stupidfuckingtelephonewhoreshouldhaveletmedothatinthefirstplace</p>
<blockquote><p><em>&#8220;Thank you, please press 1 for the address to the nearest repair center&#8221;</em></p></blockquote>
<p>grrrrrr</p>
<blockquote><p><em>&#8220;The nearest center is located at 301 driving you nuts road, because I can, 32935. If this is it, you may hang up now&#8221;</em></p></blockquote>
<p>motherf..bitchwhore.. I need the <em>phone number</em>, I need a person and <em>NO</em> <em>this is not all!</em></p>
<blockquote><p><em>&#8220;If you would like to return to the previous menu, please press 0&#8243;</em></p></blockquote>
<p>arrrggggggggg..beep</p>
<p>(repeats original options}</p>
<p>No, NO I don&#8217;t want any of those&#8230;</p>
<blockquote><p><em>&#8220;If you would like assistance, please say Help&#8221;</em></p></blockquote>
<p>Help</p>
<blockquote><p><em>&#8220;If you would like to repeat any..&#8221;</em></p></blockquote>
<p>Help!</p>
<blockquote><p><em>&#8220;..please press 9&#8243;</em></p></blockquote>
<p>HELP ! HELP !<em>HELP</em> ! <strong>HEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEELLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP!!!!!!!!</strong></p>
<p>enter husband carrying a hammer, <em>&#8220;What the hell? I thought you were getting raped or something&#8221;</em></p>
<p>&#8220;Shut up! I can&#8217;t hear what this bitch is saying&#8221;</p>
<p><em>&#8220;What do you mean shut up? You&#8217;re the one screaming and I just came in here because you&#8217;re screaming your everlovin&#8217; head off for Help&#8221;</em></p>
<p>&#8220;I swear to Christ if you don&#8217;t shut the hell up.. .I&#8217;m going to stab you!!&#8221;</p>
<blockquote><p><em>&#8220;Thank you and have a goodbye&#8221;</em></p></blockquote>
<p>&#8220;Sweet Jumping Jesus&#8230;Do you see what <em>you did</em>? Now I have to call that crazy bitch back and go through that insanity all over again because you want to come in here and talk?</p>
<p><em>&#8220;You&#8217;re nuts you know that? Next time you&#8217;re being attacked don&#8217;t call me unless you want me to make popcorn so I can watch!&#8221;</em></p>
<p>&#8220;You can&#8217;t make popcorn because we don&#8217;t have a GODDAMN MICROWAVE!&#8221;</p>
<p><em>&#8220;HA! Ever hear of Jiffy-pop, Ms. know-it-all? &#8220;</em></p>
<p>&#8220;Take my advice.. sleep with your eyes open tonight and have the kids &#8216;test&#8217; your food for you!&#8221;</p>
<p><img class="alignleft" src="http://www.smileyhut.com/angry/fyou1.gif" alt="" width="29" height="23" /></p>
<p><span> </span><br />
&#8220;Oh yeah! Back at you baby!&#8221;</p>
<p>slams door!</p>
<p>&#8220;asshole!&#8221;</p>
<p>dialing&#8230;.. ringing&#8230;.</p>
<blockquote><p><em>&#8220;Hello and thank you for calling&#8230;para el español, marque nueve&#8221;</em></p></blockquote>
<p>yes yes.. hurry up&#8230;</p>
<blockquote><p><em>&#8220;&#8230;Press Two&#8221;</em></p></blockquote>
<p>fine two whatever.. just for the love of GOD give me a human to speak to!</p>
<blockquote><p><em>&#8220;What kind of appliance are you calling about?&#8221;</em></p></blockquote>
<p>Oh dear God&#8230; A microwave</p>
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<dd class="wp-caption-dd zemanta-img-attribution" style="font-size: 0.8em;">Image by <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/8623220@N02/2163133445">The Library of Congress</a> via Flickr</dd>
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<blockquote><p><em>&#8220;A Microwave, good let me transfer you to the small appliance center&#8221;</em></p></blockquote>
<p>ahhhhhhhhhh&#8230;..yes. Yes YES!!!</p>
<blockquote><p><em>&#8220;Hello, this is Bob can I help you?&#8221;</em></p></blockquote>
<p>&#8220;Oh Bob.. Bobby.. Robert, yes you can help me. I took my microwave/convection oven down to my local repair center to get it worked on and they called me to ask what the exact problem was and I&#8217;m trying to call them to let them know but I don&#8217;t have a local number I only have the (800) number, do you have the local number&#8221;</p>
<blockquote><p><em>&#8220;Let me check&#8230;.&#8221;</em></p></blockquote>
<p>waiting.. hear typing..waiting&#8230;</p>
<blockquote><p><em>&#8220;What&#8217;s your phone number&#8221;</em></p></blockquote>
<p>321-555-5555</p>
<blockquote><p><em>&#8220;Ok&#8230; Yep got it right here.. 407-555-1212&#8243;</em></p></blockquote>
<p>&#8220;Um wait, 407 that&#8217;s Orlando.. I&#8217;m Melbourne, you don&#8217;t have the number to the local repair center, I have the address if you need it&#8221;</p>
<blockquote><p><em>&#8220;Sorry, let me look again&#8230;. Yeah, no I don&#8217;t have that number but let me transfer you to the automated system and it will help you out&#8221;</em></p></blockquote>
<p>&#8220;wait!.. WHAT?&#8221;</p>
<blockquote><p><strong><span style="color: #888888;">&#8220;Hello and thank you for calling&#8230;para el español, marque nueve&#8221;</span></strong></p></blockquote>
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<p>Oh My&#8230;</p>
<p style="text-align: center;"><em>&#8220;Hey Mom, how can I heat up this left over chicken?&#8221;</em></p>
<p>Lord, please forgive me for what I am about to do to those around me.</p>
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		<title>From Russia, With Freedom of Speech</title>
		<link>http://muchedumbre.com/from-russia-with-freedom-of-speech</link>
		<comments>http://muchedumbre.com/from-russia-with-freedom-of-speech#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Apr 2009 02:15:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>lilmike</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[MucheDumbre]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[ben folds]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[big brother]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[black hole]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[deconstructionism]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Hard Rock]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[idiocracy]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Moldova]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[niggardly]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Palin]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[special olympics]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[tar baby]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Transnistria]]></category>

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My best friend flew down to the Orlando area to visit family and friends for a few days, and to go to a Ben Folds concert at the Hard Rock at Universal.  What was a little surprising was that he invited my son, rather than me to go along with him.  Well, he [...]]]></description>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: small; font-family: Times New Roman;">My best friend flew down to the Orlando area to visit family and friends for a few days, and to go to a <a class="zem_llink" href="http://www.benfolds.com/">Ben Folds</a> concert at the <a href="http://www.universalorlando.com/events/hard-rock-live-upcoming-events.html">Hard Rock</a> at Universal.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>What was a little surprising was that he invited my son, rather than me to go along with him.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>Well, he is my son’s godfather, and besides the obvious job of granting favors, that someday (and that day may never come) <em style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">he</em> will need to do a favor for him, godfathers are usually responsible for some aspect of religious education if I die.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>Besides the obvious problem of me still being alive, the one religious discussion he had with my son began with, “See there are these things called <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology_beliefs_and_practices">Thetans</a>, which came to Earth 75 million years ago…”</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: small; font-family: Times New Roman;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: small; font-family: Times New Roman;">So religious education is out, but music education is in.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>I took my son as far as I could, The Clash, B-52’s, <span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The Cure, uh who else… anyway I dropped out of music about the same time I discovered talk radio, so if my son is going to learn of music past the 80’s he will either have to pick it up on the streets, or from his godfather.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: small; font-family: Times New Roman;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: small; font-family: Times New Roman;">But I wasn’t the only one standing out in front of the Hard Rock waiting for the concert to be over; my friend had abandoned his own girlfriend as well.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>When he originally bought the tickets, he didn’t know his girlfriend would be able to come down to Orlando that week, so it was a confluence of events and family members that led to me and his girlfriend waiting around for the show to be over.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: small; font-family: Times New Roman;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: small; font-family: Times New Roman;">Actually that served multiple purposes.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>I had to wait around anyway for my son, and he wanted to submit his new girl to a bro review.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>These were the relevant things he had told me about her so far:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: small; font-family: Times New Roman;"> </span></p>
<ul style="margin-top: 0in;" type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in;"><span style="font-size: small; font-family: Times New Roman;">She was Russian</span></li>
<li class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in;"><span style="font-size: small; font-family: Times New Roman;">Had a great sense of humor</span></li>
<li class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in;"><span style="font-size: small; font-family: Times New Roman;">She was smokin’ hot</span></li>
</ul>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: small; font-family: Times New Roman;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: small; font-family: Times New Roman;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: small; font-family: Times New Roman;">Since I’m somewhat introverted, and according to various recently discovered online tests, somewhat autistic as well, I decided I would need some back up, so I called up a mutual friend who also spoke Russian, figuring I would need help in the whole “keeping the conversation going” thing.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>What better help than to have someone who actually speaks her language?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: small; font-family: Times New Roman;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: small; font-family: Times New Roman;">So the tradeoff was made, cold war style, across a bridge at Universal Citywalk, where I traded my son for his girlfriend.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: small; font-family: Times New Roman;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: small; font-family: Times New Roman;">Yes I know.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>I’m a terrible father.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: small; font-family: Times New Roman;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: small; font-family: Times New Roman;">Anyway Svetlana turned out to be a delight!<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>First of all, although Russian she was not actually a citizen of Russia, but a citizen of <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Moldova">Moldova</a>, which had a large Russian ethnic group thanks the hard work of so many Russian Czars and Soviet Premiers.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>OK she was not actually Moldovan (who are ethnic Romanians), she is actually a citizen of <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transnistria">Transnistria</a>, a strip of Moldova that is predominately ethnic Russian.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>Never heard of it?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>Well hardly anyone recognizes it except Russia, so it has all the same legitimacy of an independent state as South Ossetia does.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>As you can see, the answer to the question, “So where are you from?” took a while. But her English was great, and she had no problem giving her blunt impressions of the United States, President Obama, and asking pointed questions of us about the United States and U.S. foreign policy.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: small; font-family: Times New Roman;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: small; font-family: Times New Roman;">But U.S. or Russian foreign policy isn’t what I wanted to write about.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: small; font-family: Times New Roman;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: small; font-family: Times New Roman;">Back up.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>It wasn’t just a trade across the bridge, we met, sat down, and had drinks before the show, and we heard Svetlana to give her version of my friend’s father’s birthday. It was a family dinner at that most pedestrian of the Darden chain and the waitress showed up.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: small; font-family: Times New Roman;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: small; font-family: Times New Roman;">With flipper arms.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: small; font-family: Times New Roman;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: small; font-family: Times New Roman;">As she flip flopped taking their order, everyone pretended that they hadn’t noticed the waitresses flippers.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>Everyone except Svetlana that is.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>She had been in the country long enough to know Americans pretend not to see those things.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>So she waited until the waitress left and plainly spoke out.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>“OK you all did see that right?”</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: small; font-family: Times New Roman;">My Buddy:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>“Uh see what?”</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: small; font-family: Times New Roman;">My Buddy’s Brother:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>I see nothing…Nothing!”</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: small; font-family: Times New Roman;">Svetlana:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>“This waitress is a cripple and clearly not capable of doing this job.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>Plus, she looks odd.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>I want to request another waitress.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>One with real hands.”</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: small; font-family: Times New Roman;">My Buddy:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>“We can’t do that.”</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: small; font-family: Times New Roman;">Svetlana:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>“And why not?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>Do you want the cripple to spill hot food on you?”</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: small; font-family: Times New Roman;">My Buddy’s Brother:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>“Shhh, she’s coming back!”</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: small; font-family: Times New Roman;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: small;"><span style="font-family: Times New Roman;">So the crippled waitress very nearly spilled food.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>Not being able to set the food down properly, she just let it drop on the table.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>Everyone smiled.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>Or almost everyone.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: small; font-family: Times New Roman;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: small; font-family: Times New Roman;">So as Lana related this story she ended it this way, “Everyone is afraid to say anything; your whole country.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>You say you have freedom of speech but you don’t.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>Russians have more freedom of speech than you do.”</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: small; font-family: Times New Roman;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: small; font-family: Times New Roman;">At least she didn’t say that the waitress belonged in the <a href="http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-obama-special-olympics21-2009mar21,0,7433169.story">Special Olympics</a>.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: small; font-family: Times New Roman;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: small; font-family: Times New Roman;">Of course when President Obama made his “botched joke,” most people understood it was a slip of the tongue, and whether you thought it was a stupid comment (and lesson to bring that teleprompter along at all times!) or an irrelevant one, most people didn’t think it was malicious.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>Never the less the left girded it’s loins in preparation of the right wing attack machine.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: small; font-family: Times New Roman;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: small; font-family: Times New Roman;">Which never attacked. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: small; font-family: Times New Roman;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: small;"><span style="font-family: Times New Roman;"><span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I suppose you could count <a href="http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/uselection2008/sarahpalin/5025638/Sarah-Palin-Barack-Obamas-Special-Olympics-gaffe-on-Leno-was-degrading.html">Sarah Palin</a><strong>,</strong> but Palin actually has a “special” child.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  If she doesn&#8217;t have a right to be offended, who does?  </span>I imagine the quip looks quite a bit different if you are the parent or sibling of a special needs child, or as we used to say, retarded.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>But there was no phony outrage generated by the right as is typical from the left.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>Of course they were expecting it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>It’s what they would do.</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: small; font-family: Times New Roman;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: small; font-family: Times New Roman;">I thought about that a bit.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>Having seen liberals <a href="http://www.pbs.org/faithandreason/gengloss/decon-body.html">deconstruct</a> the English language for political points over such words as <a href="http://voices.washingtonpost.com/sleuth/2009/04/rep_virginia_foxx_r-nc_a.html?hpid=news-col-blog">tar baby</a>, <a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/local/daily/jan99/district27.htm">niggardly</a>, and even <a href="http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2008/07/11/texas-county-official-sees-race-term-black-hole/">black hole</a>, we are afraid to challenge the most ignorant and stupid among us because <em style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">they</em> didn’t understand the word.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span><a href="http://www.niggardly.com/">Niggardly</a> comes from Old Norse and has nothing to do with black people, but try telling that to the ignorant self righteous.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>We don’t need <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Brother_(1984)">Big Brother</a> to dumb down our language, robbing us of our ability to express complex ideas.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>We are more than willing to do it ourselves.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>Who knows what language our grandchildren will be speaking in the <a href="http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0387808/">idiocracy</a> we are determined to leave them.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>Some sort of text-speak probably. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: small; font-family: Times New Roman;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: small; font-family: Times New Roman;">But first comes the fear to say anything.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>We are certainly there.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>Even Russians feel freer than us.</span></p>
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